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2 (4%)

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5 (10%)

help i'm trapped in a poll i don't know why i'm here i'm so scared someone please help

29 (58%)

me

6 (12%)

Total Members Voted: 50

[Harbingerjm]

• If we fail to recruit her, she will get the first attack. The risk is too much. And what makes you think we'll be fighting just her? It's more likely she'll have a Searchbot or two with her.

Your other questionable arguments aside, if one round is so great a risk we can't try a different strategy than "shoot it and hope the dice love us" then we shouldn't be in the fight in the first place, because that's not how this game works.

[monk12]

I'm not so sure why we're writing these Wisps off as an easy win; they can deal 4 damage a pop, 8 on a crit. Three of them focusing fire is more than enough to potentially one-shot us. I say, let randomness work in our favor for once; we know the Wisps aren't super accurate, and we need them to miss to survive this fight with no casualties. Tactical combat while the Wisps have the initiative will, I think, result in them killing somebody.

NINJA:

How about we have Ciro and Goom-bess fight while Cherish stand back and ceaselessly babble diplomacy at the wisps to take off their concentration?

I stand by my previous -1 to further diplomacy. It was sort of worth a shot before combat began, but once we started getting the insanity penalty and got attacked, it's no longer remotely close to a reasonable action. We are going to have to kill these wisps. We are going to have to kill these wisps. I typed that twice on purpose. And just in case it wasn't abundantly clear, we are going to have to kill these wisps. Tactical combat is the best solution we have right now, because it doesn't rely on dice rolls.

As for the future, -1 to attempting to recruit Proxxy. My reasons for this:

• It probably won't work. The only reason we were able to recruit Riltia at the beginning was due to her having no clue that she is a Sibling and therefore should be working for Oric and trying to kill Ciro. It's possible she still has no clue.
• Proxxy is powerful. If we want to have a snowball's chance of killing her, we will need to strike quickly. We need to get an attack in first. Attempting diplomacy will just open up ourselves to an attack.
• We are supposed to kill Proxxy. If we want to advance in the story, we'll need to do what we're meant to do: kill Siblings. Proxxy is hostile towards us, and will try to kill us. We need to kill her first. In the words of Captain Malcolm Reynolds, "If someone tries to kill you, you kill them right back."

As an implication of #3, like I stated earlier, we will need to kill Riltia at some point, too. Not yet, because she's useful and friendly. But if she stops being either one of those, we should consider actually doing what the angel statues told us.

1 & 2) Still worth one try, I think; if we get the opportunity to truly surprise Proxxy, I wouldn't be averse to a sneak attack, and obviously if the boss battle screen rolls when we see each other then diplomacy is out, but if there's pre-battle monologuing I'd like to attempt a peaceful solution. At worst, we might learn something new, and at best we get another powerful party member who might try to kill us later! Exciting!

3) I think this is the very best reason to TRY recruiting her. We're trapped in some kind of horrible murder cycle, so the best way out of that would be to do unexpected things. Obviously, this one is expected (or there wouldn't be a sidequest for it,) but at least it's the opposite of murder. If it comes to a fight, then we fight, but if we have the chance to turn Siblings against Oric to break the cycle, well, that's a chance worth taking.

MORE NINJA

• In order for shotgun diplomacy to work, it would require Proxxy to believe we actually could kill her. If we want that, maybe we should actually defeat a Searchbot for once.
• If we fail to recruit her, she will get the first attack. The risk is too much. And what makes you think we'll be fighting just her? It's more likely she'll have a Searchbot or two with her.
• This is a parody of a typical dungeon crawler game. If you want to get to the next level, you have to defeat the dungeon's boss.
  We avoided that in DL1 by recruiting Riltia. Which, again, only worked because she had no clue she was supposed to be an enemy.

If the statues and Angels (Betweenford & co.) are related (and there are more reasons to believe so than not), and the Angels are on our side (remember, Betweenford gave us the Skill Tree) and against Oric (it's been theorized that they want to break the cycles by helping us defeat Oric), following their instructions is a pretty good idea.

Firstly, I don't think a single failed persuasion check will give Proxxy the initiative, unless she really is single-mindedly intent on killing us (and we know she doesn't know WHY she should kill us beyond "Oric said so," so hopefully she'll listen if we open with words and not blood bullets.)

Secondly, we don't have to defeat each boss on each floor, we just have to get to the next floor (the entrance to which happens to be in the boss room.) Any given roguelike is technically possible to play as a pacifist. In Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup, you very often can't defeat bosses the first time you encounter them; you just try to sneak to the next floor and come back later, if at all. It's hardly a plan without videogame precedent, if we even need it.

Thirdly, really not feeling like we should trust Team Angel. First time we met Proxxy she halfass-trapped us in Underside and ran away. And then she went on to semi-adopt Cherish. First time we met Betweenford he straight up tried to murder us, no warning shots. I think Team Angel has their own agenda, and it would be a mistake to presume that that agenda matches up with our own interests.

[javierpwn]

Tactical combat still uses rolls to see if someone misses, we just take turns missing.

[monk12]

Tactical combat still uses rolls to see if someone misses, we just take turns missing.

No, that's the whole point of tactical combat. Check out the Met fight again, and note that the last room (without Megman) doesn't count since we had exited tac combat at that time.

[IronyOwl]

I also don't see why diplomacy has to happen before the fight or not at all. If we manage to knock her down to 2 hp, aim a shotgun at her face, and suggest we be reasonable about this, she might consider being reasonable about this, even if she refused at first.

[hops]

Guys, the reason that I suggested leaving Proxxy alive in the first place is because WE ARE SUPPOSED TO KILL HER.
Her cluelessness compared to other Siblings suggest that she got killed often, and as we can see with Ciro, Floe, and Riltia (who we know to have died at least once), it seem to suggest that they possess no knowledge of their deaths, which suggest that dying cause amnesia.

If we keep Proxxy alive, even if a TPK happen, we will meet the same Proxxy, and who knows, diplomacy might be easier then. (Or in the case that Proxxy joins us, we would be able to skip the boss and control the wisps.)

[javierpwn]

And they are not supposed to get revived unless Ciro dies.
And they have programmed memories when they do he revived.

Wait...... Didnt Cain have slight amnesia?
 He must be programmed to remember the Target visiting him countless times(a few times killing him) and that the Thief stole his Star.

[monk12]

I was hoping that (attempting) offering them something would remove, or at least reduce, the Insanity Penalty.

It wouldn't. That's one way in which the system can't be gamed/farmed. Persuasion is persuasion is persuasion.

GAME MECHANICS THEORYCRAFTING:

So in regular combat, positioning doesn't matter too much, and everything is very dependent on the result of dice. Circumstance modifiers don't really exist; an attack is an attack is an attack. However, by expending a bit of Soul Charge we can initiate Tactical Combat, in which positioning is everything and nothing is random.

Gentlemen.

I propose that when we meet Proxxy, we attempt to initiate Tactical Persuasion.

[Furtuka]

[mastahcheese]

Oh. My. God.

That is a Magnificent suggestion.

[javierpwn]

INITIATE ALTERNATIVE BATTLE DIPLOMACY SEQUENCE #3 1:SPIRIT DUEL TACTICAL PERSUASION!

[Tomcost]

May leaving Proxxy at low HP increase the chances of "persuading" her then?

[Furtuka]

Pokesiblings?

[GreatWyrmGold]

As for the future, -1 to attempting to recruit Proxxy. My reasons for this:

• It probably won't work. The only reason we were able to recruit Riltia at the beginning was due to her having no clue that she is a Sibling and therefore should be working for Oric and trying to kill Ciro. It's possible she still has no clue.
• Proxxy is powerful. If we want to have a snowball's chance of killing her, we will need to strike quickly. We need to get an attack in first. Attempting diplomacy will just open up ourselves to an attack.
• We are supposed to kill Proxxy. If we want to advance in the story, we'll need to do what we're meant to do: kill Siblings. Proxxy is hostile towards us, and will try to kill us. We need to kill her first. In the words of Captain Malcolm Reynolds, "If someone tries to kill you, you kill them right back."

As an implication of #3, like I stated earlier, we will need to kill Riltia at some point, too. Not yet, because she's useful and friendly. But if she stops being either one of those, we should consider actually doing what the angel statues told us.

1. I'm uncertain. We have an excellent reference, and Proxxy strikes me as a reasonable--almost neutral--Sibling.
2. I'm not convinced this is a factor. Especially since pretty much every enemy has given us at least one free Diplomacy attempt.
3. We were supposed to kill Riltia, remember? It was a specifically-given Quest.

• If we fail to recruit her, she will get the first attack. The risk is too much. And what makes you think we'll be fighting just her? It's more likely she'll have a Searchbot or two with her.

Your other questionable arguments aside, if one round is so great a risk we can't try a different strategy than "shoot it and hope the dice love us" then we shouldn't be in the fight in the first place, because that's not how this game works.

Agreed.
Especially since recruiting Proxxy would take a much shorter order of "The dice love us"...

May leaving Proxxy at low HP increase the chances of "persuading" her then?

I'd prefer saving "shotgun diplomacy" for a last resort, and to follow it up by earning Proxxy's trust. To do otherwise is inviting vengeance...


Oh, and -1 to "Tactical Persuasion". Aside from that just leading to 100% failures instead of 99% failures, if it works, it won't work because it's tactical combat.

[monk12]

Oh, and -1 to "Tactical Persuasion". Aside from that just leading to 100% failures instead of 99% failures, if it works, it won't work because it's tactical combat.

Forgive me, but I do not understand your objection? If you think I'm assuming tactical combat is the same thing as tactical persuasion, I'm not. Tactical Persuasion is just a hypothesized game mechanic where diplomacy is resolved by argument and counterargument rather than arbitrary die rolls; essentially what you were trying with the Wisps under the regular rules. It's an analog to tactical combat, not the exact same thing. I hypothesize that it would manifest in the game systems already evidenced as a form of alternate combat (much like tactical combat, spirit duels, or groove battles,) one which is specifically non-lethal, where victory equals recruitment instead of death. I wouldn't be surprised if it cost more Soul Charge than tactical combat, or had other, unknown consequences, but we won't know until we try.

If you're objection is that it's unlikely to work, well, so is regular persuasion. The way I figure it, if it's impossible then ffs won't even let us try; it would be trying to use a game mechanic that doesn't exist, like when we tried to put points in Cheating way back. If we can't try, then we probably just devolve back to a standard persuasion attempt. If we can try, then there must be a win condition, and if there's a win condition then there's probably better than 1/20 odds of achieving that condition, which is what we face with regular persuasion. Even if the odds are worse, interactive dialogue could give us new information, or at least an illusion of control over our fate.

If I'm misunderstanding the meat of your objection, please enlighten me; I'm tired, and I admit "if it works, it won't work" kinda made my brain short-circuit.