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[Azated]

With all this chat of guns, I feel like I need to ask...

Am I doing something wrong, or are guns completely crap beyond point-blank range? Ever single weapon I've ever used with every attachment known to mankind is totally useless unless I'm jamming the barrel into a zombies eye socket. Even if I spend all my starting points on weapon skills, they still suck.

They don't do enough damage to warrant the noise, weight, and waste of ammo and the recoil renders anything beyond bolt-action firing speed uncontrollable. I was standing next to a zombie firing an M4 in full auto and missing almost every shot. The few that actually hit did less damage than a skillfully aimed spitball.

[gimlet]

I don't use guns much, but last time I tried they seemed reasonable in to-hit/damage.  Do you have good ranged stats?  ie perception and dex?  Mine were at least 10 & 12 iirc, and I know that helps a *lot*.  And I think bursts have an accuracy penalty - for sure there's some kind of cumulative recoil malus.   In any case I never felt I had enough ammo to do much burst fire.

And yea, guns have a huge number of downsides especially early on.  By the time I gather enough ammo, and find/craft silencers, I'm generally "competent enough" in melee and archery that I don't need 'em.   Lovely, silent archery with its infinite supply of easily craftable ammo, it's hard for me to justify the effort in switching...

[Jacob/Lee]

Also note that firing, reloading, and driving causes recoil, which makes it harder to land the next shot. I think some attachments cause accuracy penalties.

I like to carry around a handgun or two in holsters, if I can find them. Flareguns are loads of fun, too. For that special moment when you meet a zombear, zoose, zombie bio-operator, hulk...

[n9103]

If you're firing without pausing, you're not going to hit crap. Same goes IRL as well.
The likelihood of headshots (and hits in general) increases quite a bit if you're only firing with no recoil left.
Even with white/minimum recoil, you're rarely going to make a headshot, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if you've lost more than half your accuracy overall.
When I take any character that has a modicum of stats to support ranged weapons, even without skill, they take a standard zombie down in 1 or 2, 3 shots tops. Specials take 1-3 more, depending on zombie type and ammo caliber.
I also never open fire in the middle of an uncleared area. Always fire from an edge or corner of a populated area. Better to take a scratch or bite escaping into the open, than to bring a full horde down on yourself.

[Akhier the Dragon hearted]

   Somewhat unrelated to guns but useful in combination is traps. I really like caltrops as they are in most trap clusters and you can easily pick them up and put them down again. I find they soften up the enemy quite a bit though if your in a stationary position then pits are better, not the shallow ones but the deep ones that cause fall damage.

[Mookzen]

Also, what's up with the gun ranges, I'm pretty sure bullets go way further than the length of a few buildings, a slingshot used by a whimp IRL has higher range than the guns in this game. If I want to try and hit something a few blocks away then it should be possible, bullets go far, the option ought to be available.

[UristMcDwarf]

Also, what's up with the gun ranges, I'm pretty sure bullets go way further than the length of a few buildings, a slingshot used by a whimp IRL has higher range than the guns in this game. If I want to try and hit something a few blocks away then it should be possible, bullets go far, the option ought to be available.

A street takes like a couple minutes to cross, I don't think things are to scale. 

[Mookzen]

Also, what's up with the gun ranges, I'm pretty sure bullets go way further than the length of a few buildings, a slingshot used by a whimp IRL has higher range than the guns in this game. If I want to try and hit something a few blocks away then it should be possible, bullets go far, the option ought to be available.

A street takes like a couple minutes to cross, I don't think things are to scale. 

Having time semi-abstracted is one thing and it can be reasoned with, but the permitted shooting ranges make 0 sense, it's not the same !

[Akhier the Dragon hearted]

   Realistically most guns would have a longer range then you can see. Also they would be overpowered in basically all ways if they had realistic ranges (like guns are irl) and we are partly trying for balance even if real life isn't.

[UristMcDwarf]

Wait, is there a development roadmap for cataclysm? when is the next version?

[azmodean]

No roadmap as such, though you can see stuff as it goes in on github.
We were aiming for monthly releases, then I got tapped to manage a GIGANTIC release at work, meaning I'm currently sick of doing releases.

[Mookzen]

Surely there are other ways to balance guns, like scarcity of ammo and increasing or enemy resistance to them, or lowering accuracy, or increasing noise but making them have a range of a proficient spit is totally the wrong way to go, I understand having gameplay vs reality compromises, but this seems way too much.

[Sheb]

It is linked to the "It takes 2 minutes to cross a street" issue. Giving guns are realistic range without fixing that would means enemies would never have the time to close in on you.

[Greiger]

Wouldn't there also be the problem where that would cause many guns to have a range larger than the reality bubble?

There are sooo many things in the way of giving guns realistic ranges.  I think I've heard of guns that have a longer range in skilled hands than the overmap sight range with binoculars, let alone the local sight range.

[BurnedToast]

Wouldn't there also be the problem where that would cause many guns to have a range larger than the reality bubble?

There are sooo many things in the way of giving guns realistic ranges.  I think I've heard of guns that have a longer range in skilled hands than the overmap sight range with binoculars, let alone the local sight range.

They don't have to have realistic ranges. They just need to be able to shoot at least to the edge of the screen with a fairly reasonable degree of accuracy as long as the user has a moderate level of skill.

It is linked to the "It takes 2 minutes to cross a street" issue. Giving guns are realistic range without fixing that would means enemies would never have the time to close in on you.

I fail to see how this is a problem when it's so trivial to turn a melee character into an unstoppable god of murder who can cut hordes of zombies down all day (sometimes literally smashing them into pulp in one hit) in perfect silence without ever running out of ammo (or getting tired) and, with a martial art, does not even need a weapon at all in the first place.

Meanwhile the gun user has to worry about finding the right type of ammo, the huge amount of noise it makes to shoot, reloading, carrying all that ammo, and on top of that has to have at least a decent perception stat (while a melee character can use perception as a dump stat with almost no downside).

It just seems so out of balance to me that I don't think we have to worry about making guns overpowered, and if they do end up too good somehow then as Mookzen said we can balance it other ways such as making ammo more limited or making them do less damage/enemies have higher resistance to them.