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[Pnx]

You know, I stay silent on this romance business because in all honestly I know fuck all about the subject. But the more I watch people talk about it and their experiences the more I feel that most other people know fuck all about it too. Just a random thought.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

You know, I stay silent on this romance business because in all honestly I know fuck all about the subject. But the more I watch people talk about it and their experiences the more I feel that most other people know fuck all about it too. Just a random thought.

Yes, this thread has been very....enlightening as to the mindset of the Lower Forum.

[SalmonGod]

You know, I stay silent on this romance business because in all honestly I know fuck all about the subject. But the more I watch people talk about it and their experiences the more I feel that most other people know fuck all about it too. Just a random thought.

It is really messed up.  I've mentioned a couple times before that I think life would be 100x easier without a sex drive.  People have responded with, "Well I guess it is kind of gross if you think about it..."  I didn't bother to point out that's not what I'm talking about at all.  It's all the damn social issues.  It's a mess.

[EnigmaticHat]

I think there's a bit of "counter-trendiness" at play here. Since a certain number of people blamed "whores" who prefer "bad guys" (as opposed to them, "nice guys") of their lack of luck in romantic affairs, it "obviously" follows that anyone who favors a friendly approach to a woman must be dishonest, when the real conclusion should be that the people who said those things in the first place are immature and egocentric. The key factor here is the mysoginistic rant. You can't seriously blame someone for not wanting to be with you anymore than Betty the Hideous can blame you for not wanting to date her.

There's an assumption in social interaction that people should broadcast their intentions, often in subtle or non-verbal ways.  If you're broadcasting "I want to help you" when what you're looking for is "I want you to do this", that's manipulative and obnoxious.  Ditto for broadcasting "I want to be friends" when what you really mean is "I want to be in a romantic relationship".  If they go on a misogynistic rant its just an attempt to shift the blame.

Its not unreasonable to use a friendly approach to get a woman to like you, but they need to be aware of the type of relationship you're trying to build.

[Pnx]

You know, I stay silent on this romance business because in all honestly I know fuck all about the subject. But the more I watch people talk about it and their experiences the more I feel that most other people know fuck all about it too. Just a random thought.

Yes, this thread has been very....enlightening as to the mindset of the Lower Forum.

Well it's not just the Lower Forum, the world in general seems to suffer from this a lot. For example I've noticed that a lot of people that are good at getting girlfriends and such, often aren't really good at cultivating healthy long-term relationships.
Then there's stuff like how often marriages seem to turn bad, most people seem to be unable to form and keep a happy marriage.

I keep getting the feeling that the human species in general just sucks at this romance business, but since everyone sucks nobody realises.

You know, I stay silent on this romance business because in all honestly I know fuck all about the subject. But the more I watch people talk about it and their experiences the more I feel that most other people know fuck all about it too. Just a random thought.

It is really messed up.  I've mentioned a couple times before that I think life would be 100x easier without a sex drive.  People have responded with, "Well I guess it is kind of gross if you think about it..."  I didn't bother to point out that's not what I'm talking about at all.  It's all the damn social issues.  It's a mess.

I know what that feels like. The entire thing is a mess of social issues.

[Frumple]

Actually, the human species is arguably the most proficient romancers on Earth. That's just a similar statement to saying that this is the best of all possible worlds, really. [DA]But... if we're the best there is, how can we say we are not the best that can be? Perhaps it is not mankind that is flawed, but romance.[/DA] Totally want to see this thread morph into "What is love?" One of my profs during the BA did a collab book on the philosophy of sex and love. I... really need to actually read it, heh.

It does seem that we're not really built for long term monogamy (serial monogamy seems a bit more likely, really), though. Most long term (over... what is that phrase, seven year wandering eye? Something like that.) marriages/partnerships have jack-all to do with romance in relation to their longevity. They tend to be founded in other things; economics, supporting a family, social mores, comfort, etc. I sometimes wonder if normalized partner sharing would result in a happier world in general, m'self; benefits of a long term relationship while still having the passion of short term ones. You don't really need romantic involvement to happily live with someone not blood related and of your preferred gender, after all.

[Leatra]

Pfft! There's no point to being nice to someone unless you want something from them. Geez that's just common sense you guys!

At last! Someone with common sense. By the way, lose the tongue smiley or people will think you are being sarcastic.

Nice guy (the flawed stereotype, of course) wants something. They want the girl to like him. They would do everything the girl wants. Bad guy? He doesn't care. There is a saying here and I don't know if the English language has it. Anyway, it's "The ones who escape (bad guy) will be chased (by women)." There is also another saying for women and it's "Show him first, let him touch when you get married." Yeah, I know.

The point is, some people will chase if their partners starts putting a distance. That makes the relationship more... fiery, I guess.

Also, I have to say. It's really amazing to hear other people's opinions about topics such as these. I had a similiar conservation about this topic with my friends and it was very enlightening too. People have a lot to say about things like this. No wonder this thread is the most popular thread on this section of the forum. Seriously, I leave the forum for a few hours and I have to read 2 pages to keep up.

[Solifuge]

Of course they're being nice while trying to get something. It's something normal and polite, and has no warrant on the honesty of their intentions. Plus it makes more sense than being *rude* trying to get something, don't you think?

Manipulation like that is absolutely dishonest. It's one thing to say "hey, I'll do something nice for you and you do something for me later" and entirely different thing to go "hey, I did something nice for you before, and now you OWE me, even though I never mentioned anything like that before!" Not just for relationships either; pretty much any situation where you're doing someone a favor, expecting something in return, and not voicing that expectation until much later.

When I look at every nice thing I've ever done for someone else, I think the only motivation has been to have something good happen for me in return. It's not something that's a transaction between me and someone else though; I do something nice, and continue to do nice things with the expectation that others will reciprocate when it behooves them. It's a mutualistic relationship I extend to others. If I continually offer kindnesses and give of myself, and someone takes advantage of that without reciprocating when it wouldn't be that hard, or when I really need the help, I recognize that it's not a good thing for me, and tend to gradually disconnect myself from that person.

I don't view that as manipulation at all, but rather a sign of a healthy respect for others, and for yourself.

[darkrider2]

Pfft! There's no point to being nice to someone unless you want something from them. Geez that's just common sense you guys!

At last! Someone with common sense. By the way, lose the tongue smiley or people will think you are being sarcastic.

Oh man I wouldn't want that now would I.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

 

[MorleyDev]

My "heteroromantic asexuality" just seems to get me looked at funny by all the people with a sex drive. Well, that and hit on by women I have no romantic interest in, and they have to be very unsubtle for me to even notice they are hitting on me.

Which sucks because being hit on in the "let's make out and maybe go back to mine?" sense holds no interest to me. Dinner first, love. Seriously, I can't be the only person who finds kissing boring and sex right out? And since I don't really have any romantic interest in people I've recently met (and having it in people I haven't recently met is pretty rare in and of itself), unless the woman asks *me* on a date nothing much is going to happen there.

Which is probably for the best, I like the idea of a relationship but the practicalities of one I'm well aware I'm not well suited for.

On the topic of friendzoning, whilst people not stating there intentions is just fucking retarded, and thinking "being nice and not acting means sex, right?" is such poor logic I think it needs it's own word...something like Stupidimentionacity.

Buuuuut I'll say not all instances of "friendzoning" are entirely due to the "nice one" being too subtle/unclear with their intentions. I know because I've been a friendzoner before. I enjoyed her company as a friend so didn't want to force the issue, and yes the attention was a nice confidence boost...plus that time got drunk and made out with her and then didn't speak to her for awhile before starting up conversation again and acting like nothing happened probably didn't send the least mixed of messages...look...okay I may have been an arsehole there.

[kaijyuu]

When I look at every nice thing I've ever done for someone else, I think the only motivation has been to have something good happen for me in return. It's not something that's a transaction between me and someone else though; I do something nice, and continue to do nice things with the expectation that others will reciprocate when it behooves them. It's a mutualistic relationship I extend to others. If I continually offer kindnesses and give of myself, and someone takes advantage of that without reciprocating when it wouldn't be that hard, or when I really need the help, I recognize that it's not a good thing for me, and tend to gradually disconnect myself from that person.

I don't view that as manipulation at all, but rather a sign of a healthy respect for others, and for yourself.

I rather... detest karmic balance morality. Doing nice things with the expectation of nice things in return is certainly good from a productivist standpoint, where optimization is desired. IMO though, friendships and relationships aren't contracts where you expect things from each other. You help them because you want to help them. A good relationship is an altruistic one, both ways.

Someone's invariably going to quote this and say "altruists get something too! Good feelings!" to which I say yes, that's the distinction. The difference is the "reward" is internal rather than external. You behoove no one but yourself, that way.

[King DZA]

...okay I may have been an arsehole there.

Don't feel too bad about it,

everyone everywhere is an asshole in one way or another

[SalmonGod]

When I look at every nice thing I've ever done for someone else, I think the only motivation has been to have something good happen for me in return. It's not something that's a transaction between me and someone else though; I do something nice, and continue to do nice things with the expectation that others will reciprocate when it behooves them. It's a mutualistic relationship I extend to others. If I continually offer kindnesses and give of myself, and someone takes advantage of that without reciprocating when it wouldn't be that hard, or when I really need the help, I recognize that it's not a good thing for me, and tend to gradually disconnect myself from that person.

I don't view that as manipulation at all, but rather a sign of a healthy respect for others, and for yourself.

I rather... detest karmic balance morality. Doing nice things with the expectation of nice things in return is certainly good from a productivist standpoint, where optimization is desired. IMO though, friendships and relationships aren't contracts where you expect things from each other. You help them because you want to help them. A good relationship is an altruistic one, both ways.

Someone's invariably going to quote this and say "altruists get something too! Good feelings!" to which I say yes, that's the distinction. The difference is the "reward" is internal rather than external. You behoove no one but yourself, that way.

Well... being altruistic, by itself, is a horrible way to go about trying to find a relationship.

However, treating others how you wish to be treated is how everyone should live.  Just to be sure no one gets the two things mixed up.

[Pnx]

Eh... I'm basically hard-wired to do nice things to people, this has in the past bothered me from time to time because I like having better reasons than "because it makes me feel good to see other people happy". I generally satisfy that part of myself by reasoning that society works best if everyone looks out and helps each other. But I'd probably do even if that wasn't really all that true.

[Graknorke]

I hate going out of my way to do anything, including doing nice things for people, I only do it because I'd feel worse if I was a huge dickbag all of the time.
You people who enjoy other people's happiness are lucky.