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[Neonivek]

Thus, I concluded that Culture is a relative, culturally-created construct

I will counter that one must be informed by culture but not dominated by it. Especially since as we all know... No one is "Average"

--

Ultimately what did kill this conversation wasn't any of these distractions.

It was that "Nice guy" and "Mean guy" are ultimately vague concepts at best that needed to be defined.

It also failed because "Nice Guy" is a very subjective thing to the point where most people here believed they were the "Nice guy". Nice guy became a very transient thing where as long as you weren't eating a baby right this second you were a "Nice guy".

It became a meaningless trait. Since "Nice Guy" became essentially "Us" and "Mean guy" became anyone who actually spoke to a girl.

Thus we were easy to distract.

[Max White]

Looking over the past page it's clear I have an unreceptive audience. It's not very important to me to try to persuade any of you. Questions were posed, I offered answers. Accept or reject them as you please.

I tend to be open minded to all ideas, but that doesn't mean I won't question them into submission. A skeptical mind is the scalpel that carefully removes insight from bullshit.

[Neonivek]

Looking over the past page it's clear I have an unreceptive audience. It's not very important to me to try to persuade any of you. Questions were posed, I offered answers. Accept or reject them as you please.

I tend to be open minded to all ideas, but that doesn't mean I won't question them into submission. A skeptical mind is the scalpel that carefully removes insight from bullshit.

While that is all fair and good I can understand the frustration one feels when they are questioned, especially by those who likely won't change their minds.

Mind you I do agree that it is important to question what you hear. Even if you agree or disagree with it.

---

So Conclusion: Why Don't the women Like Nice Guys?

Because ANYONE who doesn't have a girl is the Nice guy

Anyone who gets a girl is automatically not a nice guy

[Vector]

I'm pretty sure Vector was bored and made this thread to troll us.

Yes and no.  I was bored, realized that I keep on hearing stuff about "alpha blah blah blah" in response to this question and had had a recent shift of opinion myself, and wondered if anyone else had anything interesting to add on the subject.  One of those moments when you realize you've changed but the articulation of the change is wanting.

The OP is admittedly pretty flawed and doesn't fully express my feelings, so I guess you could say that you're being trolled by my mental processing lag.  You're welcome!  My goal here is mostly to get a range of ideas and an interesting discussion, so be polite, y'all.  No one needs to be argued into submission.


That said, I'm not exactly sure why we need to talk about masculinity and femininity, here.  I'm not looking for someone to shape me to their will, and I'm not looking for someone to shape.  Understanding is not an acting-upon sort of a relation, and it's the thing I find most fundamental.  Therefore, I pose the question: how do I fit inside the metric?


For those who have not heard women complaining about men cavorting with harridans, I suspect that this is a woman-space thing, because I get regular earfuls of it.  This is one of the problems with male-dominated narratives--the existence of the counter-narrative among women doesn't get heard about, and we get all kinds of weird ideas all up in our gender politics.  Of course, this goes as well for female-dominated narratives, in reverse.  I'm only citing the more common trend.

[Neonivek]

Well I think the last problem Vector is simply this

Mean men don't get the girls (at least not the stable ones). Their meanness tends to come out later or they are only mean to others.

[Vector]

Huh.  That could be it.

 

[Max White]

You know, I think we can use a better common ground to analyse this.
Let's look at the Super Mario Bros universe!

Within out sorce study, we have two protagonists, Mario and Luigi.
Mario represents the jerk. His pushy nature means that he insists on going first, as shown by player 1 always being mario in many of the games. He also uses physical strength to over come most challenges, much like a bully who throws his weight around more than he should. Finaly, his token color is red, an aggressive color associated with rage.
Luigi is our nice guy. He is polite enough to wait and go second, often being player 2. He also jumps higher than his brother, as symbolism for quietly reaching for greater heights without imposing himself on others. His token color is green, a color associated with peace and nature.
So, what one gets the girl? Well they both do! But they treat their relationships differently. Mario, being the loud jerk that he is, flaunts his 'prize girlfriend' peach around to make others jealous. He sees her an an object to be rescued and won, and as such displays his trophy when ever possible.
Luigi, being more humble, has a quieter relationship with Daisy. They don't go out of their way to make it blatantly clear that they are a couple, instead choosing to keep things romantic by spending more time with only each other. They will often sneak away from the table to sit and talk in a quiet place.
As such, it might appear that the jerk always gets the girl, because when the nice guy gets the girl, he dosn't telegraph it to the world in a display of victory, he just enjoys the relationship!

/blatant parody.

[kaijyuu]

Luigi's always struck me as the better man, anyway

[Neonivek]

That better be a parody.

Since Mario is the Steriotypical selfless Hero

And Luigi is the Hero who is just as good, if not better, as the true hero and does all the same things... but doesn't get credit for it. He is the Unappreciated hero.

Also yeah I always liked Luigi better then Mario.

[Max White]

That better be a parody.

Yea it kind of is. The point is that just because you can explain something, or even give a metaphor for it, don't credit it.


And yea, I'm a Luigi fan.

[Ogdibus]

Could it be that too nice is too boring?  One of the benefits of company is getting another person's insight.  When that is not offered, one might feel alone.

[LordBucket]

I'm not looking for someone to shape me to their will, and I'm not looking for someone to shape.
Understanding is not an acting-upon sort of a relation, and it's the thing I find most fundamental. 

Therefore, I pose the question: how do I fit inside the metric?

You have asked a question. I will attempt to answer it.

Imagine a house made of bricks. Imagine someone building that house. What relationship does the person building that house have with the brick-making factory? From her point of view...probably not much. She's never set foot inside the brick-making factory. She's never made a brick. She might not even know how bricks are made. From her point of view, it's not relevant. But...nevertheless...making bricks is an important part of the overall process. Just not the part of the process that she personally is focused on.

That's the manner in which you relate to the metric that I describe.

[Max White]

Could it be that too nice is too boring?  One of the benefits of company is getting another person's insight.  When that is not offered, one might feel alone.

Yea, I agree with this sentiment entirely! Seriously, how boring is somebody who just nods and agrees to everything because they are that nice? You want somebody with a sense of opinion, who might push your own boundaries a bit.


Ok now did that feel alienating to you, Ogdibus?

[Ogdibus]

x3  I also get described as stubborn.  Depending on the context, I will be more or less assertive, but usually, the perception is that I have no will of my own, and it does frustrate people.

[King DZA]

I feel that many of the problems we have with other people in our lives suddenly become a whole lot simpler when we let go of these vague, subjective ideas of "Nice & Mean", "Good & Bad", and just come to the (oddly comforting) conclusion that people are assholes. That everyone everywhere is an asshole in one way or another, and that sometimes you just have to wait a little longer before they start spewing their shit.

That's my perspective, at least. And I gotta say, it makes the actions of all those I share the world with just...so much easier to grasp...

Why don't women like nice guys? That's because because those women are assholes.

Why do guys put on a deceptive mask of niceness to hook up with women? Because they're assholes, of course.

But what if someone is a genuinely good person? They're not, they're just less of an asshole than everyone else!

Well why is everyone such an asshole? Obviously, because they're surrounded by assholes all the time.

And why am I so quick to call everyone in the world an asshole? Well, my friend, that would be because I'm an asshole.

Ah, clarity...