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Author Topic: What comes after J R Tolkien.  (Read 8899 times)

Ultimuh

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2012, 09:40:20 am »

Awesomeness in a quote:
"Can a magician kill a man by magic?", Lord Wellington asked.
Strange frowned. He seemed to dislike the question.
"I suppose a magician might", he admitted, "but a gentleman never could."

Gentlemen! Magic! Wellington! Old stodgy wizards! Men with Thistledown Hair! Mythic Geordie Kings! GET IT NAOW!

Can't argue with that.. Now I need to save up some monies to buy awesome gentlemanly books!
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Zrk2

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2012, 12:38:49 pm »

Do we have an ETA on the next WoT book?
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i2amroy

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2012, 01:03:36 pm »

Do we have an ETA on the next WoT book?
The current tentative date for publishing of the last Wheel of Time book is January 8, 2013.
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lordcooper

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2012, 01:07:02 pm »

Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrel is the bees knees.

The Worm Ouroboros is the only book that I actually detest.  Like, bring back book burning detest.
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Grek

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2012, 03:50:16 pm »

Can I recomend T. H. White's The Once and Future King? It's basically Le Morte d'Arthur but with King Arthur as a kid as well and the characters written in (IMO) a more relatable fashion.

I'm currently reading Elcenia which is a original fiction story about wizards available online for free here. I think it's pretty good, but I'm told I have weird taste.

What would you recommend for somebody who hasn't read a fantasy novel in years, because for some reason I got it into my head that the only books worth reading were meaningful books, where meaningful means unreadable slogs from the 18 and 1900s?
You totally want American Gods by Neil Gaiman. You can read the first few chapters here for free if you want to see if you like it.
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RedKing

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2012, 03:57:12 pm »

The Worm Ouroboros is the only book that I actually detest.  Like, bring back book burning detest.
Por que?
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nenjin

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2012, 03:58:44 pm »

American Gods is pretty good, yeah, as is Neverwhere. Gaiman has a great style but you have to accept a certain level of the author trying to be clever. (I guess you have to accept that with any fantasy/fiction, but whatever.) I remember finding myself kind of annoyed with Gaiman toward the end of American Gods, but up until that point I adored the book.

RE: Riftwar Saga. The books start to get "meh" to me right around Rage of the Demon King (or whatever it's called.) Everything up to that point....The Daughter of the Empire et. all, the King's Buccaneer, Silverthorn, Darkness at Sethanon, the Merchant Prince...all of those are good, mainly because the characters are good and likable. It's the 3rd or 4th generation of characters, post-Arthura and Amos Trask....where the series starts to downhill. Mostly because the characters stop being so well-defined and, like David Eddings, start blurring together.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 04:00:40 pm by nenjin »
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lordcooper

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2012, 04:09:30 pm »

The Worm Ouroboros is the only book that I actually detest.  Like, bring back book burning detest.
Por que?

I'll try to avoid being too spoilery in case anyone reading this thread feels particularly sadistic.

It starts off on Earth with a man going to bed and then flying to Mercury on a hippogriff.  It then spends an ungodly number of pages detailing every scrap of fabric worn by pretty much everyone of consequence in the world.  Whereas most books aim to have well developed characters, this one settled for well developed garments.  The man at the start has no relevance to the plot whatsoever and is never even mentioned or alluded to after the third chapter.  Mercury has a climate similar to Earth and is populated by humanoids who keep quoting ancient Greek texts.  The races are called Ghosts, Witches, Goblins etc despite having nothing to do with any of those things.  The characters are ALL sadistic, two dimensional sociopaths and the moral of the story seems to be that chopping people's heads off is harmless fun.

If the book has a single redeeming factor, it has been hidden incredibly well.
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scriver

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2012, 04:19:50 pm »

The Worm Ouroboros is the only book that I actually detest.  Like, bring back book burning detest.
Por que?

I'll try to avoid being too spoilery in case anyone reading this thread feels particularly sadistic.

It starts off on Earth with a man going to bed and then flying to Mercury on a hippogriff.  It then spends an ungodly number of pages detailing every scrap of fabric worn by pretty much everyone of consequence in the world.  Whereas most books aim to have well developed characters, this one settled for well developed garments.  The man at the start has no relevance to the plot whatsoever and is never even mentioned or alluded to after the third chapter.  Mercury has a climate similar to Earth and is populated by humanoids who keep quoting ancient Greek texts.  The races are called Ghosts, Witches, Goblins etc despite having nothing to do with any of those things.  The characters are ALL sadistic, two dimensional sociopaths and the moral of the story seems to be that chopping people's heads off is harmless fun.

If the book has a single redeeming factor, it has been hidden incredibly well.

Are you sure you wasn't reading Eragon?
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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2012, 11:32:44 pm »

The Worm Ouroboros is the only book that I actually detest.  Like, bring back book burning detest.
Por que?

I'll try to avoid being too spoilery in case anyone reading this thread feels particularly sadistic.

It starts off on Earth with a man going to bed and then flying to Mercury on a hippogriff.  It then spends an ungodly number of pages detailing every scrap of fabric worn by pretty much everyone of consequence in the world.  Whereas most books aim to have well developed characters, this one settled for well developed garments.  The man at the start has no relevance to the plot whatsoever and is never even mentioned or alluded to after the third chapter.  Mercury has a climate similar to Earth and is populated by humanoids who keep quoting ancient Greek texts.  The races are called Ghosts, Witches, Goblins etc despite having nothing to do with any of those things.  The characters are ALL sadistic, two dimensional sociopaths and the moral of the story seems to be that chopping people's heads off is harmless fun.

If the book has a single redeeming factor, it has been hidden incredibly well.

Are you sure you wasn't reading Eragon?
You mean "Star Wars with dragons"?
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RedKing

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2012, 10:07:35 am »

The Worm Ouroboros is the only book that I actually detest.  Like, bring back book burning detest.
Por que?

I'll try to avoid being too spoilery in case anyone reading this thread feels particularly sadistic.

It starts off on Earth with a man going to bed and then flying to Mercury on a hippogriff.  It then spends an ungodly number of pages detailing every scrap of fabric worn by pretty much everyone of consequence in the world.  Whereas most books aim to have well developed characters, this one settled for well developed garments.  The man at the start has no relevance to the plot whatsoever and is never even mentioned or alluded to after the third chapter.  Mercury has a climate similar to Earth and is populated by humanoids who keep quoting ancient Greek texts.  The races are called Ghosts, Witches, Goblins etc despite having nothing to do with any of those things.  The characters are ALL sadistic, two dimensional sociopaths and the moral of the story seems to be that chopping people's heads off is harmless fun.

If the book has a single redeeming factor, it has been hidden incredibly well.
True on all points. The "go to sleep, dream of things on Mercury" is a clumsy as hell segue, but it's an artefact of the times. Look at John Carter of Mars, or Lovecraft's works, or Lord Dunsany. The idea of writing high fantasy for its own sake and not even trying to connect it to the real world just wasn't around. So there always had to be some tenuous connection to allow suspension of disbelief.

I don't particularly remember the bit about clothes, but it wouldn't surprise me. Again, it's emulating the classic epics, like the Illiad or the Norse sagas. Which also spent a LOT of real estate talking about someone's clothes or weapon or all the various things they were called.

The bit about calling them Demons, Witches, Goblins, etc. is a bit peculiar but again -- this is before the real birth of high fantasy. And much of the core of the story came from bits Eddison wrote as a teenager, especially the naming. The alternative was to invent bizarre alien names like Lovecraft or delve deep into linguistics like Tolkien (and both of those approaches were breathtakingly novel for the period). Again, look at John Carter of Mars -- you have the less-than-imaginative races of White Martian, Red Martian, Green Martian, Black Martian, etc.

I wouldn't agree that all the characters are sadistic assholes. Yes, the "heroes" are mostly unlikeable. But I found the Witchland generals (Corund, Corinius, Corsus) to be fairly interesting. And then Lord Gro is the most complex character in the book (and in my opinion really the main protagonist). It compares to the Illiad in that respect. I remember reading the Illiad and thinking, "Wow, Achilles is an asshole."

I'm not saying that I wish fantasy novels were Eddison ripoffs rather than Tolkien ripoffs, but you have to admit it *is* different from the stock "elves, dwarfs and orcs" mishmash that constitutes sooooooo much of the fantasy genre.
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scriver

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2012, 10:23:38 am »

Just want to chime in and say that there is no Elves, Dwarves, or Orcs in Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrel. READ IT. You know you want to.
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Starver

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2012, 10:28:00 am »

On that bit about the "of an era" narrative methods, I suppose one must mention Out Of The Silent Planet and Perelandra (if I've spelt that correctly) by C.S.Lewis.  Doesn't really have anything like the "hard SF" vibe, even though it involves interplanetary travel, although of course they are both (yet another!) Christian allegory by Clive...  who doesn't have 'form' with either this form of story or "magical transportation" systems between worlds, oh no, definitely not... ;)

(edited for entire words missed out... bad me)
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 11:13:08 am by Starver »
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RedKing

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2012, 10:59:48 am »

Exactly. Prior to the big fantasy boom of the 60's and 70's, it was very common to indicate that a more or less straight-up fantasy world was actually on some real-world other planet, because it was obligatory to make the story "real-ish".

Then you come full circle on the trope with something like Anne McCaffrey and the Pern series where
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Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
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Caz

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2012, 11:12:30 am »

I'd definitely second the Malazan series. If you like low fantasy, The Lies of Locke Lamora is great and I hear there's sequels out now as well.

Also for some more branching out:
Sci-fi -> Peter F Hamilton
Historical Fiction -> Conn Iggulden (Roman series and Mongolian series)
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