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Author Topic: What comes after J R Tolkien.  (Read 8959 times)

nenjin

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2012, 03:21:41 pm »

I found the Simarillion hard to get through, and I say that as someone who read the Count of Monte Cristo for fun and about half of the Three Musketeers.

Maybe I just didn't crave the higher parts of Middle Earth mythology like other fans. Some of the stories are cool but they're written and talked about from a distance, like someone reciting tales to you. Except they're tales packed with long, complicated names and jump around to different points in history, referencing stuff that you have to look up in indices. It wasn't what I'd call fun reading, and is worlds away from the The Hobbit.

Another series I remembered is the Death Gate Cycle by Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman. It's loosely attached to the Dragonlance D&D Novels but it totally stands out on its own. Really brilliant, inventive fantasy, cool settings and interesting characters. It's a 7 or 8 book series and each book is very different from the next, yet has the common thread going throughout all of them. And Haplo, Rune Magic and the Labryinth are just such well done things.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2012, 10:38:27 pm by nenjin »
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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2012, 03:37:02 pm »

Try reading Anthony Piers, if you have a fetish for older men banging teenage girls, it will be right up your alley! It also has other stuff in it besides that...
Sounds to me like you should mean Piers Anthony.

He's got some stuff I like (Incarnations Of Immortality series, though I only originally found the first five books, of eight) but while I rather liked the Xanth stuff at the time (35 books in that series, at this moment, more coming, though I can't think of any beyond Isle Of View that I read), I did rather compare him to "Terry Pratchett with only the puns" (witness "Isle Of View") at the time I was falling out of love with Xanth and going full-on-Pratchett.

Pratchett aint really what you're looking for, at first sight.  The first two books, these days often sold as one, were said to be intended as a silly antidote to the high fantasy stuff that got inspired by JRRT, Robert E. Howard and the like, but  went overboard (in PTerry's opinion, at least) [edit: the prior high fantasy stuff, that is, although he is also self-critical of his younger self's writing].  And even long-term fans rarely rate these early books as much as some of the later ones, which are more expertly written (by an older and wiser author), but certainly not what you're asking for, but enjoyable nonetheless.

If you do want to consider Pratchett's books, however, without actually knowing much about you I think the standard "start here" is often "Guards! Guards!".  The first of the (informally known-as) "Watch" series (or, aptly enough, the "Guards" one), it starts the process of following the development of the kind of guard whose sort of job is to rush in to attack the 'hero' and get killed, but in a(n increasingly) fully-fledged working city.  There's dragons, and stuff, but in a logical manner.  Surprisingly logical for the way the setting becomes.

If you're looking for high magic equivalent stuff, the Wizards series (which starts off with the aforementioned first two books, The Colour Of Magic and Light Fantastic) features increasingly complicated ways in which not to use magic, in and out of a magical academy (pre-dating and already better fleshed-out than Hogwarts, don't worry!), or the Witch series which does much the same with the female version (the magic of country lore, etc).

One visual reading order guide (slightly out of date) is at http://www.lspace.org/books/reading-order-guides/the-discworld-reading-order-guide-20.jpg. The missing books (where "Rincewind books" is what I'd term the "Wizards series" with the Rincewind starters).  If despite my protestations that this is not exactly "What comes after J R R Tolkien" doesn't put you off, and you aren't already acquainted with it all anyway, you might still want to check it out.

Be warned that the early books start off very light (until fine-tuning to just right, by somewhere around the third to fifth book in, depending on personal preference) and the very latest ones go very dark[1], but then if you know anything about PTerry you'll both know what he's currently going through and that if this has any bearing on the recent darkening it won't have made him gratuitous about it.


For the record I (also... to add to that ninjaing nenjin) found Silmarillion hard to read (almost as hard as it is to remember how to spell (again, thanks to Nenjin for confirming I got that vaguely right).  But if you are into the Tolkien mythos it's probably one to read to make sure you're immersed.

(And, as an additional response to nenjin's intermediate message, Weis & Hickman novels are probably a touchstone in the genre, IMHO, but there's an awful lot of them and I can't comment on actual consistency across the whole range.)


[1] "I Shall Wear Midnight", which you should imagine is added after Wintersmith in the "Young adults"/"Witches" set on the linked-to reading order, has pretty much a very horrific situation right near the start that surprised me, but I still think it's worth reading if/when you get to it.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 03:58:44 pm by Starver »
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lemon10

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2012, 03:44:17 pm »

I tried the Simarillion, but I just couldn't read it. The prose was terrible, its not really Tolkens fault, since it was just notes IIRC, but I still couldn't manage it.
The other would be the The Riftwar Saga (and everything that follows after it) by Raymond E. Feist. It's closer to what I'd call modern fantasy, a more adult version of David Eddings. While it's closer to a world based on an epic D&D campaign than Tolkien's high-falutin fantasy, it has very rich characters and spans generations of the world, bringing back characters from previous books as their older, more bad ass selves until they finally pass and their children take over. I think it's up to 4 series and at least 12 books.
The riftwar saga is pretty good.
It starts off the best, and the farther you get into the books the more "Meh" they become. I would recommend reading riftwar for sure, but after that its optional.

The Malazan book of the fallen is just lovley. I love pretty much everything about it, the amazing and epic world, the amusing and differentiated characters, the fact that some charachters will rant about their philosophy, and you can tell that its their opinion instead of the author speaking through them telling you how they see things, the vastness of the setting. It can all get a bit confusing with so many charachters and settings and times and worlds though.

Other great fantasy, in no particular order (which may or may not be what you are looking for "After Tolkien":
The Wheel of Time: One of the classic fantasy series, over ten books in, and quite close to ending, it has some problems: Its crazy crazy long, the pacing can be needlessly slow, the women are mainly the same, but overall its a good series.
The Blade Itself (starting with The First Law): Nice setting, good writing, and amusing and believable characters.
Name of The Wind: Can't reccomend it enough, its a new series, and the main character is a bit of a mary sue, but the author makes it work great regardless.
The Way of Kings: The first book (and currently only) book in a planned epic fantasy series by Brandon Sanderson. His other stuff is pretty good, but this is the best.
Lies of Locke Lamora: A series about con-men scamming very rich people and trying to take all their stuff, very good.
The Darkness That Comes Before: Dark and gritty, about the coming second apocalypse and the rise of the Messiah figure/harbringer.
Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrel: About the only two magicians in England, where magic has been long dead. Very unique, I have never really read anything like it.
The Dresden Files: My sole urban fantasy series. I love it, and since its urban fantasy is a little bit of a guilty pleasure, but the writing is good, and the characters and plot are fun.
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Durin Stronginthearm

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #18 on: October 28, 2012, 07:52:46 pm »

"I Shall Wear Midnight", which you should imagine is added after Wintersmith in the "Young adults"/"Witches" set on the linked-to reading order, has pretty much a very horrific situation right near the start that surprised me, but I still think it's worth reading if/when you get to it.

It's handled incredibly skilfully though, which is why ISWM is one of the books I recommend to people who think Pratchett is just wry jokes about dwarves. It's suitable for just about any reader; you'll understand as much as you're able to cope with.

Recommendations: Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea series has plenty of magic and adventure, and more besides. Start with 'A Wizard of Earthsea' and work your way through the series.

Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series is technically science fiction, but reads and feels more like fantasy. One of the very few books I've read that gives me the same kind of epic feel that LOTR does. It's regarded as being fairly 'difficult' in many quarters, though.
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Frumple

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #19 on: October 28, 2012, 07:54:15 pm »

Yeah... to the tangental mention of Piers Anthony, have a second fair warning that dude's a bit a pervert (or at least writes like one, heh), and it infests pretty much everything he writes. Near as I can tell, just about every single book or series he's had published (at least of the stuff I've read, probably a good 1/2 to 2/3rds of his bibliography, which is quite a bit) has at least one sex scene (usually more) in them, somewhere (including the Xanth series, which is ostensibly more child friendly.), and some of it can get a bit freaky (Firefly and Pornucopia, as examples, though everything else aside the latter has some pretty humorous scenes, at least as far as I got into it. Avoid Firefly like the plague.), even by my fairly lenient standards.

That said, he's fairly solid and the non-Xanth stuff that I've read is alright. I've got a bit of a nostalgia kick for the Adept series, Bio of a Space Tyrant has its up sides (Down sides including rape and incest, among other things :-\), several of the Incarnation books are kinda' interesting, he's done some decent stuff if you can stomach some of his literary tendencies or the subjects they hit on (The Mode stuff hitting on suicide and some pretty decently fucked up gender stuff, iirc, as a general example...).

Definitely not on the same sort of scale as LotR and related materials, though.

Seconding the Riftwar stuff. I've got a couple of the books laying around somewhere, remember them being pretty decent. Incidentally, Riftwar formed the lore background for Betrayal at Krondor, which is pretty neat in itself, or so I hear.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2012, 07:57:05 pm »

I would highly recommend Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn, if you liked LOTR.

Very good epic fantasy trilogy in it's own right, and Tad William's is a good author.

It avoids the pitfall many other fantasy series having of just sort of glossing over the "ending" before deciding to do without. It's ending is quite strong, and while it does manage to pull the classic "split the last book into two print books because it got too long", it still handles it well.

It's got some very strong, terrifying scenes, Binnabek is a memorable and interesting take on the concept of trolls, and overall it's just really, really good.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 08:02:19 pm by GlyphGryph »
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Willfor

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2012, 11:41:05 pm »

The Favionar Tapestry by Guy Gavriel Kay was written soon after he finished helping edit the Simarillion, and it's a fairly mythic epic fantasy trilogy. I would recommend reading it before reading his better books, because it's harder to come back to the Favionar Trilogy after reading Tigana or the Sarantine Mosiac duology.
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lordcooper

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2012, 02:24:34 am »

Katherine Kerr's Deverry Cycle is some of the greatest fantasy ever written IMO.  It follows characters through multiple incarnations and has a really nice Celtic vibe.

E: What's wrong with GoT?
« Last Edit: October 29, 2012, 02:28:22 am by lordcooper »
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ChairmanPoo

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2012, 05:22:55 am »



Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series is technically science fiction, but reads and feels more like fantasy. One of the very few books I've read that gives me the same kind of epic feel that LOTR does. It's regarded as being fairly 'difficult' in many quarters, though.
The Book of the New Sun is so rife with Sufficiently Advanced Technology that it only becomes somewhat clear that its actually scifi by the second book. I found it to be pretty clever all in all. The ending was confusing though
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Facekillz058

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2012, 05:54:32 am »

One of my favorite book series is Ranger's Apprentice.
There are 4 books in the series.
I can't remember who it was by, but it is similar in that the whole book is pretty much groups of people trying to acheive various difficult goals.
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Starver

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2012, 05:57:42 am »

"I Shall Wear Midnight", which you should imagine is added after Wintersmith in the "Young adults"/"Witches" set on the linked-to reading order, has pretty much a very horrific situation right near the start that surprised me, but I still think it's worth reading if/when you get to it.

It's handled incredibly skilfully though, which is why ISWM is one of the books I recommend to people who think Pratchett is just wry jokes about dwarves. It's suitable for just about any reader; you'll understand as much as you're able to cope with.
Oh yeah, I would definitely say so, but I am a bit of a Pratchett fanboy, some might argue, so take that as you will, random-person-who's-wondering-how-accurate-I-am.


But that's utterly gone off-topic to the OP's request.  Just saying, as I'd somehow taken us in that direction.

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2012, 08:48:08 am »

What would you recommend for somebody who hasn't read a fantasy novel in years, because for some reason I got it into my head that the only books worth reading were meaningful books, where meaningful means unreadable slogs from the 18 and 1900s?
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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2012, 09:12:21 am »

I'm fond of The Worm Ouroboros (E.R. Eddison) myself. Very different sort of fantasy, in part because it preceded Tolkien by a decade or two. The writing style can be a bit daunting (it's written in archaic 16th-century English), but the feel of it is much more akin to something like the Illiad or a Norse saga, chronicling a war between Demonland and Witchland on the planet Mercury. Has the remarkable aspect that the heroes (the lords of Demonland) are rather cardboard and forgettable, but the villains (the lords of Witchland) are quite human. There's no "evil for evil's sake" here. Instead, their evils are human flaws: gluttony, pride, wrath, drunkenness, etc.
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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2012, 09:27:04 am »

Dunno, from fantasy books, try Sabriel by Garth Nix, and the rest of his trilogy. Some neat fantasy-real world meddlings, not to mention lots of journeys through hostile places.
Also Necromancers of the kind you propably never seen before.
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scriver

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Re: What comes after J R Tolkien.
« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2012, 09:28:21 am »

On the basis of fantasy, I'd like to bring up The Farseer Trilogy by Robin Hobb. She weaves a very impressive world with this and following trilogies (though I haven't read the newest one) and how it all fits together, making the whole over-arc a very epic story despite the individual trilogies having smaller scope. Good, believable characters, consistent messages, interesting setting. Pretty much one of the better series out there, in my opinion.

For literalistic worth, Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrel. It's just plain awesome. Best fantasy I've ever read. Only book to ever give me a continual orgasm for over 200 pages.


What would you recommend for somebody who hasn't read a fantasy novel in years, because for some reason I got it into my head that the only books worth reading were meaningful books, where meaningful means unreadable slogs from the 18 and 1900s?

That being the case, I'd definitely recommend Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrel again. It takes place mostly during the Napoleonic Wars, and is written in faux-19th century style. Not an unreadable slog by any mean, though. But yeah, that would totally easy your transition back. Also it's awesome. Did I mention that literary orgasm? Yeah.

Awesomeness in a quote:
"Can a magician kill a man by magic?", Lord Wellington asked.
Strange frowned. He seemed to dislike the question.
"I suppose a magician might", he admitted, "but a gentleman never could."

Gentlemen! Magic! Wellington! Old stodgy wizards! Men with Thistledown Hair! Mythic Geordie Kings! GET IT NAOW!
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