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[Splint]

I knew that about dwarves, I just didn't know that would happen with humans since they otherwise don't get the reactions at. Didn't really matter though, most of my soldiers in that settlement used a mix of copper, bronze, leather and civilian gear with a few steel swords mixed in. They did suprisingly well.

I just gave the humans a cheaper crappier version because steel production was possible, but slower and expensive/ inefficent (pretty much representing these with it costing the same materials for something not quite as good as hat dwarves make.)

[Scow2]

Wow... I just found this, and had a few ideas on how to improve it. Honestly, I don't like the minecamp building - actual mines and quarries would work better. As far as stone not being a building material, all I have to say is "WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?" Humans tend to make MASSIVE stone structures - even more in their constructions than even dwarves.

The way to keep Humans from playing too much like dwarves, as I see it, is - in addition to making Wood more efficient, as has already been done - is to add something like the inverse (but not opposite of) Cave Adaption, if that's possible - Make humans adverse to working in dark areas, and too much time down there makes them sick.

[Splint]

Thier cities ingame are built almost entirely from wood with paved roads. Only fortresses and tombs at present are built from stone.

I personally find it most efficent to dig into a hillside hearly one and then expanding to the surface as you get more workers. That way you have a solid and easy to defend location to retreat to until the outer fortifications are built. Also, longland grass/prickle berries are a very good means of providing brewables and food at a decent rate. In fact, i think Prickle Berries are surface races' plump helmet in terms of growth time.

[NRN_R_Sumo1]

Being a human I agree with Scow, we are quite known for our giant chunks of stone.
We're also know to pour liquids which turn to stone, and have built many cities across this realm.

While we can become accustomed to the dark, many of us have difficulty at first.


But seriously in all honesty, humans and dwarves are not that different, because dwarves are designed by humans through mythology to basically be small humans who are strong and great metal crafters.

Give humans slow learning and call it a day.

[Splint]

I was referring to them in-game terms. Aside from temples, fortresses, bridges, and tombs, they build entirely with wood. I'm not talking real world humans, otherwise I'd say whatever. If we're going to stick with a theme, then stick with it though. Sure working with wood is a pain, but it's a hell of alot easier with the sawmill thing which can make it a better (and easily replaced) alternative to stone. Stone is the realm of the dwarf in dwarf fortress, not humans.

Plus since you'll be needing so much wood, if you wanna deliberatly piss the elves off you can do so just by gathering your building supplies! always a plus!

And I don't see why they'd need any learning handicaps outside of stoneworking and maybe metalworking, since those are are intended to be what dwarves are known for, not humans. They already get penalties regarding armor wieght, lacking trancing, and lacking knowlege of cavern beasties, should the caverns be tapped for the wealth they contain. The only true advantages they have are size and more weapons/clothing available to them. Compared to dwarves they're laughable otherwise, blundering about on the surface and relying on wood.


Should stone NEVER be used? not what I meant. I meant that's more something you build monuments, forgeworks, or catacombs with as humans, not general living quarters.

[Scow2]

I was referring to them in-game terms. Aside from temples, fortresses, bridges, and tombs, they build entirely with wood. I'm not talking real world humans, otherwise I'd say whatever. If we're going to stick with a theme, then stick with it though. Sure working with wood is a pain, but it's a hell of alot easier with the sawmill thing which can make it a better (and easily replaced) alternative to stone. Stone is the realm of the dwarf in dwarf fortress, not humans.

Plus since you'll be needing so much wood, if you wanna deliberatly piss the elves off you can do so just by gathering your building supplies! always a plus!

And I don't see why they'd need any learning handicaps outside of stoneworking and maybe metalworking, since those are are intended to be what dwarves are known for, not humans. They already get penalties regarding armor wieght, lacking trancing, and lacking knowlege of cavern beasties, should the caverns be tapped for the wealth they contain. The only true advantages they have are size and more weapons/clothing available to them. Compared to dwarves they're laughable otherwise, blundering about on the surface and relying on wood.


Should stone NEVER be used? not what I meant. I meant that's more something you build monuments, forgeworks, or catacombs with as humans, not general living quarters.

Humans build a LOT of fortresses and tombs, though - have you seen what they do in Adventure Mode? They also build some houses out of stone.

The difference being that Humans build in areas that are Light, and spend minimal time in areas that are Dark. Dwarves are comfortable underground, because their small and weak when not in their trances or decked out in heavy armor, and lots of things want to kill them. Humans are big, strong, and wield powerful weapons that allow them to bring the full force of their blows against their foes, and thus are willing to take on the Above-ground world on its own terms. Between the sawmill, and if it's possible to make a Cave-aversion syndrome-thing for them (They CAN'T really adapt to the underground - even if they sleep or live in a cave, they still go out to get fresh air regularly), that would further discourage tunneling their fortresses, instead of erecting mighty cities, castles, and towns ABOVE the ground.

Slow Learning is an absolute DO NOT do for them.

Dwarves and humans are very similar. The difference is that Dwarves rule under the earth, while Humans dominate the above-ground land.

[smakemupagus]

I don't know of a tag that's like CAVE_ADAPT, but the opposite.  Although that is a nice idea.

[Splint]

I've never seen houses built out of stone. Temples, fortresses and tombs on the other hand along with brick paved roads in major cities though yeah.

And I notice that the number of tombs seems to depend on how violent your world is (Alot of my recent gens have alot of hostile races and tombs are way more prevalent near human towns in these gens.)

This makes me wish I had my best settlement, Shockedtowns. I eventually replaced the inards of the place with wood so effectivly a good chunk of the town just had a nice sod roof. I also find to simulate them coming out for fresh air, a well meeting zone is nice to have outdoors. I do, oddly enough, see them as having no problems in the caversn because of them being large and open, and most likely illuminated, at least enough for something like a human or dwarf to see, with bioluminesent fungi.

I can get screens of my most recent one though if the thread is interested. Other than a temple I'm building, a magma forgeworks (seems all races know enough about the stuff to make use of it) and my duchess' tomb, everything is above ground and other than a bank that was built for shits and giggles the place is built entirely from wood.

[IndigoFenix]

Here's how to make a negative cave-adaptation effect:

Place this in the creature file:

Code: [Select]

[CAVE_ADAPT]
[CAN_DO_INTERACTION:SPELUNCAPHOBIA_MW]
[CDI:TARGET:A:SELF_ONLY]
[CDI:WAIT_PERIOD:33600]
[CDI:FREE_ACTION]

And create this interaction:

Code: [Select]

[INTERACTION:SPELUNCAPHOBIA_MW]
[I_TARGET:A:CREATURE]
  [IT_LOCATION:CONTEXT_CREATURE]
[I_EFFECT:ADD_SYNDROME]
  [IE_TARGET:A]
  [IE_IMMEDIATE]
  [SYNDROME]
    [CE_DIZZINESS:SEV:10:PROB:100:RESISTABLE:START:0:PEAK:8400]
      [CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:CAVE_ADAPT:8400:16800:REQUIRED]
    [CE_DIZZINESS:SEV:100:PROB:100:RESISTABLE:START:0:PEAK:16800]
      [CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:CAVE_ADAPT:16800:33600:REQUIRED]
      [CE_DIZZINESS:SEV:1000:PROB:100:RESISTABLE:START:0:PEAK:33600]
      [CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:CAVE_ADAPT:33600:NONE:REQUIRED]

The important part is the [CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:CAVE_ADAPT] tag.  The first number is the point at which the previous syndrome effect will begin, the second number is the point at which it will end.  It runs off of the same counter as the regular cave adaptation variable (that's why the creature needs to have [CAVE_ADAPT], so it is actually very effective at making an above-ground race.  For instance, the counter won't instantly reset back to zero when they come up for air, but it'll gradually roll down over time.  It is also worth noting that the effect will instantly stop when they are not underground, even if the counter is over the specified start number.

This particular version is designed to create a creature that can make short trips underground without any trouble (about one week at a time - long enough for a mining/gathering/hunting trip but not long enough for long-term settlement) but need to come up for a breather or they'll grow dizzy, which basically makes them much less efficient at everything.  If you keep them under for longer periods, the dizziness will grow more severe.

As long as the cave-adaptation counter is over 8400 (one week), they'll get dizzy the moment they go underground.  And regardless of what the counter is, they will stop being dizzy the moment they surface (actually, not the exact moment in this particular case - but that's only because dizziness tends to linger a bit even after the syndrome causing it stops.)  You can choose to give them any negative (or positive!) syndrome you want.

One more note: they will take on the same effects as dwarves if you keep them under for too long - being irritated by the sun if they stay under for over a year and being nauseated if over a year and a half.  But, this will probably not happen unless you choose to keep someone underground for longer periods as a punishment/sadism.

[Meph]

I have an idea for the syndromes:
Make a workshop that "equips" humans for cave expeditions. It needs certain items and gives them immunity to the syndrome.

Example:
The syndrome causes blindness (because it is dark underground)
The workshop needs torches to give immunity to blindess caused by cave-adaption. Temporary, the torches last 1 month. After that, bam, blind.
Human comes back to the surface: Gets syndrome that causes recuperation:5000 for the eyes only. Healed, and they can see again.
Make 3 versions, small torch, torch and big torch, and you can explore different depths.

[GreatWyrmGold]

The above idea sounds good. I can also see a kind of mushroom that negates the effect for a month or so? when eaten or when its alcohol is drunk, but it grows slowly and might have lesser syndromes, like nausea for a day or a little liver necrosis. Brew only the Dwarfbeard Mycelium or whatever it's called, and you could have a fortress of subterranean humans with lots of vomit in the stockpiles and some rotten livers. The mushroom should probably grow slowly and occur in the lowest cavern level dwarves can export plants from.

[Scow2]

Here's how to make a negative cave-adaptation effect:

Place this in the creature file:

Code: [Select]

[CAVE_ADAPT]
[CAN_DO_INTERACTION:SPELUNCAPHOBIA_MW]
[CDI:TARGET:A:SELF_ONLY]
[CDI:WAIT_PERIOD:33600]
[CDI:FREE_ACTION]

And create this interaction:

Code: [Select]

[INTERACTION:SPELUNCAPHOBIA_MW]
[I_TARGET:A:CREATURE]
  [IT_LOCATION:CONTEXT_CREATURE]
[I_EFFECT:ADD_SYNDROME]
  [IE_TARGET:A]
  [IE_IMMEDIATE]
  [SYNDROME]
    [CE_DIZZINESS:SEV:10:PROB:100:RESISTABLE:START:0:PEAK:8400]
      [CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:CAVE_ADAPT:8400:16800:REQUIRED]
    [CE_DIZZINESS:SEV:100:PROB:100:RESISTABLE:START:0:PEAK:16800]
      [CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:CAVE_ADAPT:16800:33600:REQUIRED]
      [CE_DIZZINESS:SEV:1000:PROB:100:RESISTABLE:START:0:PEAK:33600]
      [CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:CAVE_ADAPT:33600:NONE:REQUIRED]

The important part is the [CE:COUNTER_TRIGGER:CAVE_ADAPT] tag.  The first number is the point at which the previous syndrome effect will begin, the second number is the point at which it will end.  It runs off of the same counter as the regular cave adaptation variable (that's why the creature needs to have [CAVE_ADAPT], so it is actually very effective at making an above-ground race.  For instance, the counter won't instantly reset back to zero when they come up for air, but it'll gradually roll down over time.  It is also worth noting that the effect will instantly stop when they are not underground, even if the counter is over the specified start number.

This particular version is designed to create a creature that can make short trips underground without any trouble (about one week at a time - long enough for a mining/gathering/hunting trip but not long enough for long-term settlement) but need to come up for a breather or they'll grow dizzy, which basically makes them much less efficient at everything.  If you keep them under for longer periods, the dizziness will grow more severe.

As long as the cave-adaptation counter is over 8400 (one week), they'll get dizzy the moment they go underground.  And regardless of what the counter is, they will stop being dizzy the moment they surface (actually, not the exact moment in this particular case - but that's only because dizziness tends to linger a bit even after the syndrome causing it stops.)  You can choose to give them any negative (or positive!) syndrome you want.

One more note: they will take on the same effects as dwarves if you keep them under for too long - being irritated by the sun if they stay under for over a year and being nauseated if over a year and a half.  But, this will probably not happen unless you choose to keep someone underground for longer periods as a punishment/sadism.

Nice!

As for the cave-adaption thing... I wish I knew anything about syndromes, to create one that turns the Human into a Dwarf if it stays underground for 2-3 years (losing its SPELUNCAPHOBIA in the process.)

Mushrooms of Dwarvenkind also seem like a somewhat workable idea for when you feel your human settlement absolutely MUST outdo dwarves at their own game. Humans are ambitious, after all.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Again, the Dwarfbeard Mycelium would probably have negative syndromes to go with the positive.

[Splint]

I was going to voice opposition to the cave adaptation thing because that's not how humans roll in a mostly unmodded game, but  I can tell I'll be fighting uphill if I do.

I'll skip to my key points

- The intended goal is a good vanilla human civ aside from minor consessions to reaction and construction (coke, pearlash, the sawmill, and adamantine basically.) This seems like it's trying to turn into something more than that, and while that's a good thing (very good in fact) it really isn't the purpose.
- Most mining expeditions take longer than the alloted time if your searching for ores, and using shifts requires more micromanaging than most people would care to do.
- I concede the personal choice on the cave thing. not going to argue against it despite my own opinion.
- Living like a human is already challenge, as anyone who's tried to pull that with dwarves will tell you: Slow, tedious, and if you don't get walls and a gate up ASAP, constant attrition will severely hamper work on workshops space, storage, and not dying in general.

Probably rambling and rustling feathers, I'll shut up now.

Oh, and the plant/brew to counteract cave vomitting would have to be on layer 1 or the dwarves won't be able to bring it if that's used by someone.

[GreatWyrmGold]

"Living like a human is already challenge, as anyone who's tried to pull that with dwarves will tell you: Slow, tedious, and if you don't get walls and a gate up ASAP, constant attrition will severely hamper work on workshops space, storage, and not dying in general."

That's why we need reasons to live aboveground.