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[Tiruin]

PFP Timezones and a Storm caught up with the posting time.

Extend

Tiruin: I'm getting a headache trying to parse all of your questions to me.  I'll try to state my line of thinking here as clearly as possible.  Borno name-dropped Deathsword D1 in part of a response to a question of mine.  It didn't seem to make sense why he would have mentioned DS at that point.  To me, that seemed like a newscum slip where you have your partner's name in your head and it pops out where it wouldn't seem to make sense to. 

abculatter_2 was (in my opinion, were I scum) a prime mislynch target because of his non-serious behavior.  Those kinds of people, in my experience, are the ones that are the easiest to get (mis)lynched.  So, suspecting you and DS to begin with, then seeing you vote abc, and then DS switch to abc ... it looked like coordinated behavior to me, especially since you called DS on his bullshit handling of questioning/voting abc without pressuring him too hard about it.  In my mind, if you and DS weren't scumbuddies, then you would have laid into him hard when he pulled the crap he did D2. 

And, to clarify, softballing to me is when you need to question/pressure someone (because otherwise it would look scummy of you to not do so) but you only do enough to keep up appearances.  You're not trying to get the person to crack and/or you're not trying to call much attention to them. 

Also, I'm not saying you're town because DS flipped town.  I'm not sure where you got that idea from.

If I missed anything specific, fire it at me again. 

 
[musing]
I'm noting that IronyOwl stated that his top suspicion at the end of D1 was Chaos Armor.  IronyOwl was a cop.  IronyOwl did not claim inspect results D2.  I want to believe IO inspected CA N1 and got a town result, but I also realize it's too easy to WIFOM myself about this as well.
[/musing]

More later, but I suppose to answer Hapah from early D2:
Flying Dice
and one of either Theo or Tiruin. 
I'll expound upon that later today. 

Well:

Tiruin: Why do I mention you in my post to Deathsword?  Because of this timeline:
-D2 Starts
-Ds votes CA, suspects abc but says abc hasn't done anything scummy
-Tiruin votes abc (which, if I was scum, would be my #1 mislynch pick for D2)
-Tiruin pokes Ds to question abc
-Ds can't think of questions for abc, FoSes abc, then copies your question to abc
-Tiruin totally softballs Ds on the abc topic
-Ds now votes abc (again, ripe mislynch target) with a question I said not to ask

Note that this entire time abculatter_2 never made a post. 

So Deathsword starts off D2 voting the wrong guy, Tiruin pops in scumchat and tells Deathsword to vote the easy lynch guy (abc), and Deathsword bumblefucks his way over to voting him. 

I don't understand what exactly you're asking about the "inertiawagon thing".  (As an aside, was this term thrown around before this game?  I don't really remember seeing it before, but I kind of like it anyway.)

I should've read it clearer, you did make a reference to borno's act in the statement above it. (Reply #100)

borno@79: You seem to think that you could just start attacking someone else to take heat off of your scumbuddy.  What if the player going after your scumbuddy was an IC or another very aggressive player?  What would you do then?

Erm, I suppose you mean this hypothetically?
I guess I wouldn't be confident in defending against an IC, but I guess I could handle an aggressive player. I see you are referring to my post. Why are you jumping to conclusions that I am in a scumteam with deathsword? I thought that was a bad thing to do so early in the game.

On the bolded part, I was thinking on what you were thinking "If Deathy = scum, Tir = scum." so as the other came up, I assumed the bolded part in your thinking.


Hapah: Forgive me without putting reply #s, but due to lack of time, I fail to do so. I did ask questions to you, albeit directed at "abc's replacement" due to not knowing who would replace him at the time.

Mod: Day modextended to Thursday 9:00 PM MST for 4th of July holiday. That is...today, right? Or...in GMT +8, it is Thursday?

Anyway, post coming up in...~11 hours, if I can get net inb4 that time. Weather and work.

Lots to re-read and analyze.

[Tiruin]

EBWOP:

Shakerag: Why didn't you mention that which borno did in referring to me and Deathy earlier?

[Hapah]

Tir: Day ends tomorrow, ~26 hours from now. Does anyone else want an extend?

And it's cool Tir; I'll dig and find them. The post number thing was mostly directed at FD, since I didn't want to skim over the meat of his argument. I don't expect them on every post.

[Shakerag]

[Just making some IC commentary here in regards to something I saw.

When crafting a mafia post, keep your audience in mind.  You know why you wrote what you did, and you certainly expect that if the bulk of your post is directed at someone, they'll be going over it carefully to respond.  But what about the other players in the game? 

When you lay out a big ol' case against someone to prove they're scummy, who benefits from that?  You're already voting the person, and no matter how great your evidence is, your target isn't going to vote themselves.  You want the other players to read your awesome post and think to themselves, "hey, that person makes a strong point, I think his/her target is scum too". 

Most people, from what I've seen, tend not to like walls of text.  Summarize your strongest points in a list.  If you need to back up what you're saying (and you do need to back up what you're saying), throw in a link to a post, refer to the number of the post, or include a brief quote from a post.  Remember, you want to make it easy for other people to follow your argument, not have them hunting for the posts you're referencing.  Strongly try to avoid quoting large posts, and especially avoid quote pyramids.  If you really need to quote a large chunk of text, put it behind a spoiler.  The longer your post is, the greater chance people's eyes are going to glaze over when reading it.

tl;dr:
-Stick to a handful of your strongest points
-Reference points with a link, post number, or a spoiler-quote post
-Avoid walls of text]

[Tiruin]

Tir: Day ends tomorrow, ~26 hours from now. Does anyone else want an extend?

And it's cool Tir; I'll dig and find them. The post number thing was mostly directed at FD, since I didn't want to skim over the meat of his argument. I don't expect them on every post.

Thanks you. 

Alright, back and unhindered by rain or work! Alright, maybe not the latter, but now I've got time.

Tiruin: You've voted one of the current six and FoSed two today; would you mind listing your suspicions (or lack thereof) on everyone still alive, and reasons for them?

Shakerag - My vote stays on him because, while he did post his reasoning on borno's idea and Deathy's 'link', as of the current day all his suspicion on me (seems to, lack of vote?) have dropped due to Deathy's flip. I'm still curious as to why that happened, Shake, as stated by your opening post for this day.
Hapah - Replaced abc. Had questions for him (pre-replacement), but Hapah is a solid player and sounds like he is doing his town game there due to observation and reasoning.
CA - Seems like he's throwing out all his cards on his defense, he does sound townish in his statements, and in his acquittal (is this used right?) as his counter-pressure on his attacker has brought much evidence.
Theo - A particularly good hunter and open-minded questioneer, until I saw this

Unfortunately, what this also means is that now I have a lack of solid suspicions. Which is a horrible thing to have on MYLO. I have a couple sneaking suspicions but I need to go back over the last couple days before I can say anything for certain. I'll be looking over everything again as I get time today and will try to have something a bit more extensive later today.

>Who exactly do you suspect, and why do you only have two people on your list (judging by context)?

And lastly, you [FD]: Your posts are filled with text and partly focus on CA and why he should be lynched. Still, I'm on unstable footing about you, as I can recall how my first BMs went...with nearly the same style. Anyhow,

For now, I've looked over my initial suspicions of CA and argument against him from a detached perspective, and there are some problems with it that are too serious to ignore. Honestly, at this point I don't see anyone I think is suspicious enough to risk losing via mislynch. For the moment, Unvote. I'll give it as much thought as I can spare, but I won't be home/near a computer or browser-capable phone until late Thursday afternoon. I'll hopefully have collected most of my thoughts by then. Again, apologies about this, but I'm not in a position where my schedule is negotiable.

So are you talking about yourself here in this 'mislynch'? Unvote, why?


Come to think of it: Everyone: As it is MYLO, and we've gleaned much information today, what about a no-lynch for now. Tomorrow, we can resume the pace (if or if not there is a kill). Now I'm not against FD's lynch today, but something isn't right with the current state of affairs and on the vote patterns and I'm not having that much of a scum-feel on him.

Well, unless we can still Extend, that is.

Going back and reading through D2, I can't help but notice that IronyOwl was making a large point about questioning everyone about thier cases on Chaos Armor.  The more I look at it, the more I see cop-like behavior of trying to get people away from someone who inspected as town.  Flying Dice is awfully keen on seeing Chaos Armor lynched, and for reasons that feel a bit shaky to me.  The unvoting/voting thing back on D2 is a bit queer when I look at it in more detail now (and am not intently focused on a different player), and I can't get behind the "CA started a bandwagon" argument at all. 

Shakerag
Care to explain how you concluded the bolded portion? Post-flip Irony, or pre-flip?
Also, the second bolded statement was explained by FD being uncertain and on the verge of thinking newb-town or scum. He stated that 'When Dice sees someone as scummy, Dice votes that someone as scummy', non-verbatim.
On the last: Why? Have you only seen that now?

[Hapah]

PFP

Tir: Oh yeah, I forgot I owed you answers to those questions. I'll dig them up after I get off. Also, I didn't read Theo's post as only having two suspects, but he'd know what he meant better than I would.

And honestly, I'm not exactly thrilled with the prospect of either an Extend or a No-Lynch. This is just my opinion, but it can be hard to keep people focused and interested in the game if it drags on for week after week, especially since the majority of people don't have a power role. Once it bogs down, it feels like it's a PITA to get it moving again. Just my two cents, though if anyone (ICs especially) wants to chime in on the topic of player fatigue, go ahead (I feel it's a very credible factor in a BM). I, personally, would rather take a quicker win or loss, but there are five other people here. What do you guys want?

[Jim Groovester]

[1] Shakerag: Tiruin
[3] Flying Dice: Hapah, Chaos Armor, Shakerag

Day ends Today 9:00 PM MST, in ~8 hours.

[Theodolus]

PfP

I know that for myself it's been getting more and more difficult to get the time to put towards the game due to real life becoming more and more busy. We're installing a new phone system at work on Monday and it's been prep time this entire week. Add to that a bunch of family stuff going on over the last week and my post rate goes way down. Thankfully I don't have a lot going on this evening, so I'll try to get on and do a full review and question answering time this afternoon (around 5PM MST I think). I would rather see a quick win or lose as well, but I will still do my best to work out votes and backing up information for them.

[Hapah]

Tir: Found it! Reply 210. If there's some other one, lemme know and I'll try to dig it up.

abc's replacement: Could you give your opinion on why you think abc acted like such?

Honestly, I only gave Fiskav and abc's posts a quick scan. Not really any content from either, and no point trying to pick apart the posts from the person/people you are replacing, since you know their alignment. I think abc didn't realize Mafia Is Serious Business, and once he realized the commitment he half-assed it before flaking out. But, really no clue.

[Flying Dice]

I've been having some of the same problems with work mounting up. Just spent the past ~24 hours entirely at work and in transit, and the worst part is that I don't have anything approaching consistent hours. Them's the breaks, I suppose. I think I'll skip out on the next BM or two until I'm back at uni and have more spare time.
____

Anyhow:

Shakerag: Yeah, when I detached myself for an objective reread, I realized that I was tunneling CA far too much and had become more than a bit emotionally invested in the argument; the point where I unvoted him briefly was when I was questioning my own reasoning but decided that I could push further and (in a bit of rather poor play) showed my indecision in my actions. IronyOwl's behavior looks coplike in hindsight, but as they say, hindsight is 20/20. I didn't interpret it as coplike behavior (hell, I'm not sure if I noticed it) at the time, and I don't think anyone else did.

I mentioned the thing about not giving anyone a free pass because it was still fresh on my mind, and a part of me was trying to draw attention to the fact that it could have been happening again. But yes, I was rather overly concerned with my tunnel and overly convoluted arguments to devote much time to other investigations, I'm moderately ashamed to admit.

Theodolus: That was about the point where I started wondering what the hell I was trying to argue. I suppose I need to work on learning when to just apply Occam's Razor and break off before I get into really damned foolish word-twistings. Eh, s'a learning experience, neh?

Tiruin: In terms of the "mislynch", I was referring to the fact that we're in MYLO and will autolose if we lynch one of our own. Thanks to that tunnel, I haven't really been paying enough attention to behavior or interactions (or doing enough investigating of my own) to place a vote that would be anything other than a random guess, which is about the last thing we want to do in a situation like this. As per the above, I unvoted. I don't have any suspicions great enough to warrant a vote at the moment, as I've been going back over things and am fairly sure that CA is town, given the tone of his responses when not coloured by my own concentration on the investigation.

On that other note, I'd almost forgotten that that was an option. I don't really see any downside to a no-lynch; if the scum don't NK anyone, we're in the same position; if they NK someone, we're at LYLO (essentially the same situation, except that we have better odds of nailing a scumbag). So in short, it costs us nothing but time and gives us better odds of lynching scum (and thus not losing)? Unless I see something massive in the next few hours, that seems like the best option to me. No-Lynch

I'd prefer if we avoid extending, as it seems to kill interest (and I have no idea when my boss will drop another load of shit on me).


I'll be back tonight or tomorrow night with some questions to see if I can find a new tack for investigation, once I've had time to go over interactions not involving me, tunneling, or convoluted arguments that make very little objective sense. Assuming I'm still alive, that is.

[Hapah]

Alright. Here are all the possible outcomes of the day, as I see it:

Spoiler: Possible Outcomes (click to show/hide)

Mislynch, Doc Saves - Enter tomorrow at Lynch-Scum-Or-Lose  (that's LYLO, right?), barring another Doctor save

Mislynch, Doc Fails - Scum Wins

No Lynch, Doc Saves - Tomorow same as today

No Lynch, Doc Fails - Enter tomorrow at Lynch-Scum-Or-Lose, barring another Doctor save

Lynch Scum, Doc Saves - Enter tomorrow with 1 Scum, 4 Town

Lynch Scum, Doc Fails - Enter tomorrow with 1 Scum, 3 Town

I'm still in favor of a lynch today, though each of you must come to your own decision, obviously. I'll be on a little this evening, so post any questions/comments you've got.

[Theodolus]

PfP

RL: should be at home in about an hour to an hour and a half.

[Theodolus]

Tir
The two suspicions I had at the time were Flying Dice and Shakerag. But doing an evaluation of the votes as they stand right now leads to an interesting set up.

Now, hopefully this doesn't come across sounding too WIFOM-ey, but this is what I'm seeing right now.
Hapah, Chaos Armor and Shakerag are voting FD.
Tir is voting Shakerag.
For MYLO it would make little to no sense for the scum to split their votes since all they have to do is get a couple others in agreement or a No-Lynch by one person with one town agreeing with them to lynch a townie. This would seem to indicate that of the voting public the scum would be voting Flying Dice currently. It wouldn't surprise me if Hapah was scum since he came in to this day with a very strong move on a player who has been tunneling on a single person. Naturally FD looks scummy due to his tunneling against CA, and as such he's a good target to get the town to mislynch. It's either that or FD and Tir are scumbuddies as I just don't believe the scum would be bussing each other at this point.
I still think that CA is newbie town with not enough time to post, so that eliminates him from my list. The other two are Shake and Hapah.

Running to dinner. Will posts my final thoughts in about 30 minutes.

[Hapah]

Theo: Hmm...

My top 2 scumpicks are FD and Shake. At the moment, I think Shake is just bussing FD. I'm more confident that FD is scum than Shake.

I think a bus is a very real possibility. And I think a FD-Tir or a FD-you team are possible, but not as likely as a FD-Shake team.

However. If I can't get you onboard for a FD lynch, I would consider a Shake lynch as a goodwill gesture. I think he's scum at the moment, but I'm less certain about him than I am about FD. It's worth nothing that if I just held the course, FD would get lynched. But I'd rather work with you, if possible.

Why do you think a bus at this point is unlikely?

Mod: We've got what, an hour? Is there any chance of a short finish-our-conversation extension?

[Theodolus]

A bus is certainly possible, but not terribly practical. Like I said, the problem with a bus is it is an unnecessary extension of the game. Why bus your partner when all you need to do is keep pushing a town lynch. Shake and FD could have kept pushing CA and probably ended up enough votes on him to lynch him if they wanted to win right away. At this point Shakerag for me is almost definitely a scum. I'm going to quickly go over the Lurker Tracker and check out his more recent posts to see if I can come up with anything solid.

But I'll let you know that right now you look like a better lynch target to me (other than the impracticality of getting enough people on here right now to change their lynch votes). Reasoning has to do with the fact that you came out swinging and swinging hard at Flying Dice. Also, the behavior of the previous incarnations of your character. Fiskav was one of my top three suspicions on D1 due to what I saw as very scummy behavior. Sure, you gave Shakerag a token FoS, but if you're scum going for a mis-lynch then any FoS you give would basically be to just give yourself credibility. Back in a few minutes with my final decision.