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[Shakerag]

I'm growing more and more suspicious with each post that you're all in on this together and just trolling me.

[Urist Imiknorris]

And then all of us were cult.

But seriously, lynch me.

[Bookthras]

That was... weird. OK, Jack posted, so let's look at that first:

FoS crap

You are full of shit and doubling down on your shitty response. I explained my reasoning several times, and you continue your scummy panicky reaction to a FoS. This tells me you are scum. But I'm done with this topic. People can reread the relevant posts themselves and form their own opinion.

You didn't respond for quite some time (you were "unexpectedly away" for a day, according to you), [...] I was in no situation in which I could post, or even read the game.  Simple as that.

So, when I'm busy it's a suspicious "according to me" thing, but when you are busy it's "simple as that"... double standard much? Some times people are busy, and we all post when we can. But your attempt to latch onto my busyness as sinister and yours as innocent is again a scummy tactic to pile new bullshit on top of your other bullshit.

[about UI's inventory claim demand]Why demand it: Standard reasoning for it, as far as I can tell, is to maximize information available to the town.  That's pretty much the main reason for demanding it.

For demanding past actions, yes. Not for future ones; that only helps the scum, and we can see that most everybody saw that and lied about it anyway. His request was anti-town. Your failure to denounce it, and claiming it favours town, is scummy on its own merits, and one more instance of you and UI agreeing more than two random townies would.

it's still a good move for scum paladin to claim non-paladin when inspected.

Right. Since he claimed non-paladin when inspected, he's scum? But you think he's telling the truth? Bah.

It's confirmed LYLO now.

Confirmed? It's only confirmed LYLO if there are two scum left, yes? Since you seem sure it is confirmed, it means you know how many scum remain. How do you know this?

Complaints about people not answering questions:
*Bookthras: Answer the question at the end of my block on you in this post, please.

For week-old stuff in the middle of a wall-of-text, quoting it would be easier, yes? But I think you mean this:

Experience tells me that with ten players, three scum and a 3rd party is too much, so it makes sense there are only two actual mafia, but then for balance I think there is still a 3rd party out there. For starters, a brother is not a particularly powerful 3rd-party role, so for balance there should be at least one more (6-2-1-1 is a safe bet). We know it's not a killer, as all kills/attempts have been accounted for. It may be something rather innocuous like a second brother or survivor, or something more sinister like a cult. We should not ignore this possibility.

Bookthras: What exactly made you change your opinion on this?

Well, a 6-2-1-1 situation seems likely as I originally suggested, but I changed my level of certainty about it after Hapah reminded me about Roguelike3's two mafia teams, and I dropped the cult idea once it became clear by conversation that either there wasn't one or they had already won.

If you meant a different question, please quote it.

On a completely different topic, Ottawa's a great-looking city.

Yes, it is. That river is a beautiful thing, isn't it? You should see it in winter.

You'll figure it out when I flip.

I really hate this. So you're voting yourself? that's nuts, regardless of alignment. It may be a self-bus to aid Jack, or a bluff to get people into a chaotic vote-swapping as the day comes to an end, or there may be something unexpected about his flip (can he be a jester? it's not impossible, but he hasn't played a jestery game). All in all a confusing move.

But this tied vote resolves nothing. I still think scum is either you or Jack, and maybe both, so if you want to die, I have no problem helping you. Vote Imiknorris.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Confirmed? It's only confirmed LYLO if there are two scum left, yes? Since you seem sure it is confirmed, it means you know how many scum remain. How do you know this?

If scum is alive after today, then it's entirely possible for there to be scum + lyncher + townie who is lyncher's target alive tomorrow. Instant town loss.

I really hate this. So you're voting yourself? that's nuts, regardless of alignment. It may be a self-bus to aid Jack, or a bluff to get people into a chaotic vote-swapping as the day comes to an end, or there may be something unexpected about his flip (can he be a jester? it's not impossible, but he hasn't played a jestery game). All in all a confusing move.

No. I'm going to flip town. And since Jack's reaction makes me highly doubt you two are a team (otherwise it's LyLo, and why would he keep voting you when I'm the easiest goddamn mislynch ever), I feel that this is safe. My flip will confirm that my logic (that you are scum by process of elimination) was right all along, and if Shake and Hapah have any sense they'd lynch you tomorrow. If Jack was lynched, you and I would have to go through all this again.

You're fucked, Book.

[Shakerag]

No. I'm going to flip town.

Not Lyncher?

[Urist Imiknorris]

No. My original plan (ruined by my eagerness to set it into motion) was to actually survive today, tell Book to NK Hapah (which he'd do because then I'd hand him an instant win) right before day end, show up to LyLo tomorrow, vote Shakerag and vote to shorten, then let him pseudo-hammer (playing to win and all that), only to withdraw my shorten vote before Toaster acted on them (I confirmed with Toaster ahead of time that if the shorten vote was retracted before he counted them it wouldn't be counted). Book, being caught in the act of trying to "hammer" a known townie at LyLo, would then be lynched like the scum he is. It would have worked perfectly, had I claimed about twenty-five hours later than I did. But this way works too, I guess.

[Shakerag]

only to withdraw my shorten vote before Toaster acted on them (I confirmed with Toaster ahead of time that if the shorten vote was retracted before he counted them it wouldn't be counted).

Annnd ... you'd know when Toaster was going to count the votes ... how? 

Anyway, I'm going to vote Bookthras because he's vote hopping like he just don't care.  I mean, really, Book.  Do you think we'd have a setup of three scum plus brother to a scum in a ten-player game?

[Urist Imiknorris]

Annnd ... you'd know when Toaster was going to count the votes ... how?

I'd be checking the thread every ten minutes or so. I really don't have anything better to do here.

[Bookthras]

Imiknorris:

No. I'm going to flip town.

So, not lyncher then? Bah, your lies on top of lies are becoming meaningless. So you're claiming townie now? Then please answer your own question:

WHY THE FUCK WOULD A TOWNIE LIE.

Also, Mr. Townie: why fakeclaim ranger when inspected?

No. My original plan [...] Book, being caught in the act of trying to "hammer" a known townie at LyLo, would then be lynched like the scum he is.

Riiight. But if I were the scum you claim I am, I wouldn't have voted you, yes? By your own admission, if I were scum my best move was to let you live. Since I didn't, it follows I'm not.


Shakerag:

Anyway, I'm going to vote Bookthras because he's vote hopping like he just don't care.

I vote the scummiest, and voting oneself is a scummy and ridiculous move. As I said earlier, I think either of them can be scum, and maybe both, so I'm fine with lynching either. While UI is scummier, Jack is scummy enough. Note how Jack jumped right onto UI's cunning plan.

I mean, really, Book.  Do you think we'd have a setup of three scum plus brother to a scum in a ten-player game?

I wouldn't rule it out. As Hapah said, Roguelike3 had four scum in two teams in a ten-player game, and brother-to-scum doesn't seem less balanced than brother-to-town really. I think it's more likely that one is scum and the other is allied in a different way, though (either mafia-ally or brother or something), but both being actual scum is also a possibility.


As for the vote flipping, you're doing it too, and others are in danger of it as well. I foresaw this as Imiknorris's strategy to add to the confusion:

I really hate this. So you're voting yourself? that's nuts, regardless of alignment. It may be a self-bus to aid Jack, or a bluff to get people into a chaotic vote-swapping as the day comes to an end, or there may be something unexpected about his flip (can he be a jester? it's not impossible, but he hasn't played a jestery game). All in all a confusing move.

It is a very scummy move, and engineered to create confusion. Don't fall for it.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Imiknorris:

No. I'm going to flip town.

So, not lyncher then? Bah, your lies on top of lies are becoming meaningless. So you're claiming townie now? Then please answer your own question:

WHY THE FUCK WOULD A TOWNIE LIE.

I'll answer it with your own answer:

People, even townies, may lie as a gambit or trap, or to seek reactions/counterclaims, or by accident (technically a mistake rather than a lie, but still an untruth), or because they panicked under pressure (yeah, even townies do that, and Native panicked badly), or for any number of other reasons. That's why scumhunting is important: to find the motivation behind people's words. That's what reveals alignment, not whether they have or have not bent the truth in one way or another.

You were the one who pointed out that sometimes townies have cause to lie. Until then I hadn't thought of it. Blame yourself. The lyncher fakeclaim was a setup specifically for you. The actual reason why I didn't post yesterday is that I was waiting for some information from Toaster before putting it into motion, specifically the bit about shortening (vital for the viability of the trap) and whether a lyncher whose target is nightkilled becomes town if they're already dead (helpful to the credibility of the claim). I have no doubt from your reaction that it would have worked had I not given the others time to act on it.

Also, Mr. Townie: why fakeclaim ranger when inspected?

Because that's what I actually am. I'm a town ranger (fakeclaiming lyncher paladin [fakeclaiming town ranger again {simple, isn't it?}]).

No. My original plan [...] Book, being caught in the act of trying to "hammer" a known townie at LyLo, would then be lynched like the scum he is.

Riiight. But if I were the scum you claim I am, I wouldn't have voted you, yes? By your own admission, if I were scum my best move was to let you live. Since I didn't, it follows I'm not.

First: WIFOM and you goddamn know it.

Second: You didn't vote me until I started actively assisting the effort to get myself lynched, which no lyncher would do, thus proving I wasn't actually the LyLo breaker you were hoping for.

Roguelike3 had four scum in two teams in a ten-player game, and brother-to-scum doesn't seem less balanced than brother-to-town really.

a) The two scumteams in RL3 did oppose each other, yes? The scenario you "wouldn't rule out" has all the non-town on the same side, which could conceivably end the game after a single mislynch. Toaster should know better than that.
b) Brother to scum = LyLo/MyLo breaker. Single. Mislynch.

It is a very scummy move, and engineered to create confusion. Don't fall for it.

Exactly. Just lynch me so I can be proven right. Wait until tomorrow for Book. His time will come.

[Shakerag]

Frankly guys, I pretty much feel I've lost this one in spirit.  I've got so little to go on here that if I end up helping to lynch scum it's going to be more by chance than anything else and it'll feel like a pretty hollow victory.  Anytime I read back over and try to pin down which of UI, Jack, and Book could be scum I end up so deep in WIFOM that I need a life-preserver. 

I'm sticking with my vote on Book because, fuck it, at this point it's as good as a vote on anyone to me.  The best I have right now is a weak-ass gut feeling of Book coming across as too calm and collected, and UI just being too batshit insane to be scum.

So, yeah, my vote on Book is staying.  If you're actually scum, Book, and end up losing because of this, I apologize in advance, because you played a solid game and I could have ended up voting Jack or UI just as easily. 

[Bookthras]

I'm sticking with my vote on Book because, fuck it, at this point it's as good as a vote on anyone to me.

Dude, you're betting the game on "because fuck it". Not cool. I think Imiknorris's plan is better:

It is a very scummy move, and engineered to create confusion. Don't fall for it.

Exactly. Just lynch me so I can be proven right. Wait until tomorrow for Book. His time will come.

He's going to flip scum or scum-ally. If he doesn't, and the game is not over, there's time to figure out what that means. Giving up is for sissies.

[Shakerag]

Yeahhh ... I don't like UI calling out for a self-lynch, and I don't like you being all gung-ho about supporting it.

You can humor me in the meantime, Bookthras, by giving me your theory on why there was no kill N3 or N4 though.  Jack too, if he shows up.

[Urist Imiknorris]

I'm sticking with my vote on Book because, fuck it, at this point it's as good as a vote on anyone to me.

Dude, you're betting the game on "because fuck it". Not cool.

He really isn't. I mean, the more votes on me the better, but I've got the lead.

He's going to flip scum or scum-ally. If he doesn't, and the game is not over, there's time to figure out what that means.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh you're going to be so disappointed. And then dead.

But seriously, Shakerag. Wait until tomorrow when I'm lynched. Things will be a whole lot clearer. Note that most of Book's case on either me or Jack is based on our interactions. When I flip town, Book's case on Jack goes down in flames, and my case on Book is posthumously vindicated.

[Hapah]

Jesus H. Christ, guys.

I need to go buy groceries, but you lot are going to make me go straight home and hit the bottle at this rate.