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[bombzero]

-snip- Also breaking a shoulder ALREADY makes a person to drop their weapon.

you sure? i have seen quite a bit of odd behavior in adventure and fortress here?
on more than one occasion a enemy has had their entire arm beat to shit except the hand and still attacked with their weapon...

[Deon]

Yes I am sure, just tested it a few times. Breaking any joint disables a limb.

NERVOUS makes the creature to drop EVERYTHING and fall on the ground, it's from the spine damage. Why would that be on every limb?

[Vherid]

Yes I am sure, just tested it a few times. Breaking any joint disables a limb.

NERVOUS makes the creature to drop EVERYTHING and fall on the ground, it's from the spine damage. Why would that be on every limb?

Nervous kills everything under it, killing NERVOUS in the arm isn't going to turn them into a quadriplegia.

[Deon]

I thought it works on joints only, I haven't tried it on limbs. Anyway, since it works without it, why NERVOUS?

[bombzero]

oh ok i thought you meant vanilla vs this mod... nvm.

i geuss double insurance?
wait actually... no i got nothing.

[Grimlocke]

Current status on my end:

Finished armor raws themselves, and restricted layering to being sensible succesfully (such as, chainmail coifs can be worn with a kettle helm, hauberks with coat of plates, but no wearing more than one of each type, or pulling greathelms over hounskulls)

Still have to make some layering adjustements to clothing.

I did run into one, or rather two nasty problems: Worldgen characters pick very stupid combinations of armor (tier 3 plate armor, tier 1 kettle helm, NO gauntlets or armor) much less actualy wear more than one item of armor on one bodypart or choose matching sets. I could live with them not wearing multiple layers of armor, but what they use now is just kind of rediculous.

What I need is some insight in how the game picks armor and clothing for characters, and a good way to test it doing so. Right now the only methods are to generate a world, make an adventurer and look what they make and use, or making a fortress, cheating something realy expensive into existance and waiting for invaders. Both of these cost a lot of time, and im not sure how many changes I can make without having to do this all over again.


Anyhow, temporary armor raws for peer review:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

item_tool

[OBJECT:ITEM]


   **** Head and neck armor ****

[ITEM_HELM:ITEM_HELM_HOUNSKULL]
[NAME:hounskull:hounskulls]
[ARMORLEVEL:3]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[SHAPED]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:45]
[LAYER_PERMIT:15]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[METAL]

[ITEM_HELM:ITEM_HELM_GREAT]
[NAME:great helm:great helms]
[ARMORLEVEL:2]
[SHAPED]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:95]
[LAYER_SIZE:45]
[LAYER_PERMIT:40]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[METAL]

[ITEM_HELM:ITEM_HELM_KETTLE]
[NAME:kettle helm:kettle helms]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[SHAPED]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:75]
[LAYER_SIZE:45]
[LAYER_PERMIT:20]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:2]
[METAL]
[LEATHER]

[ITEM_HELM:ITEM_HELM_BASCINET]
[NAME:bascinet:bascinets]
[ARMORLEVEL:2]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:75]
[LAYER_SIZE:25]
[LAYER_PERMIT:15]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:2]
[METAL]

[ITEM_HELM:ITEM_HELM_SKULLCAP]
[NAME:skullcap:skullcaps]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:55]
[LAYER_SIZE:20]
[LAYER_PERMIT:20]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:1]
[METAL]
[SCALED]
[LEATHER]

[ITEM_HELM:ITEM_HELM_GORGET]
[NAME:gorget:gorgets]
[ARMORLEVEL:3]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:60]
[LAYER_SIZE:15]
[LAYER_PERMIT:10]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:2]
[METAL]

[ITEM_HELM:ITEM_HELM_COIF]
[NAME:coif:coifs]
[CHAIN_METAL_TEXT]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:80]
[LAYER_SIZE:20]
[LAYER_PERMIT:10]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:2]
[METAL]
[LEATHER]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_METAL]

[ITEM_HELM:ITEM_HELM_AVENTAIL]
[NAME:avantail:aventails]
[ARMORLEVEL:2]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:60]
[LAYER_SIZE:15]
[LAYER_PERMIT:10]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:1]
[METAL]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_METAL]


   **** Body armor ****

[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_PLATE]
[NAME:plate armor:plate armor]
[PREPLURAL:suits of]
[ARMORLEVEL:3]
[UBSTEP:0]
[LBSTEP:1]
[SHAPED]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:40]
[LAYER_PERMIT:10]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:12]
[HARD]
[METAL]

[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_HAUBERK]
[NAME:hauberk:hauberks]
[ARMORLEVEL:2]
[UBSTEP:1]
[LBSTEP:1]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:20]
[LAYER_PERMIT:10]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:9]
[METAL]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_ALL]

[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_COAT_OF_PLATES]
[NAME:coat of plates:coats of plates]
[ARMORLEVEL:2]
[UBSTEP:0]
[LBSTEP:0]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:95]
[LAYER_SIZE:40]
[LAYER_PERMIT:30]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:6]
[METAL]

[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_SPLINTED]
[NAME:splinted armor coat:splinted armor coat]
[PREPLURAL:suits of]
[ARMORLEVEL:2]
[UBSTEP:0]
[LBSTEP:0]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:40]
[LAYER_PERMIT:30]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:7]
[METAL]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_ALL]

[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_SCALE]
[NAME:scale armor coat:scale armor coat]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[METAL_ARMOR_LEVELS]
[UBSTEP:1]
[LBSTEP:1]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:20]
[LAYER_PERMIT:10]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:9]
[METAL]
[SCALED]
[LEATHER]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_ALL]

[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_LAMINAR]
[NAME:laminar armor:laminar armor]
[PREPLURAL:suits of]
[ARMORLEVEL:2]
[UBSTEP:1]
[LBSTEP:1]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:95]
[LAYER_SIZE:40]
[LAYER_PERMIT:10]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:12]
[SCALED]
[BARRED]
[LEATHER]
[METAL]

[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_LAMELLAR]
[NAME:lamellar armor coat:lamellar armor coat]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[METAL_ARMOR_LEVELS]
[UBSTEP:1]
[LBSTEP:1]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:20]
[LAYER_PERMIT:10]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:6]
[SCALED]
[BARRED]
[LEATHER]
[METAL]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_ALL]

[ITEM_ARMOR:ITEM_ARMOR_LEATHER]
[NAME:gambeson:gambesons]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[UBSTEP:2]
[LBSTEP:1]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:150]
[LAYER_SIZE:10]
[LAYER_PERMIT:5]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:6]
[HARD]
[SOFT]
[LEATHER]


   **** Hand and arm armor ****

[ITEM_GLOVES:ITEM_GLOVES_MITTENS]
[NAME:mitten:mittens]
[METAL_ARMOR_LEVELS]
[CHAIN_METAL_TEXT]
[LAYER:UNDER]
[COVERAGE:150]
[LAYER_SIZE:20]
[LAYER_PERMIT:10]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[HARD]
[METAL]
[SOFT]
[LEATHER]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_ALL]

[ITEM_GLOVES:ITEM_GLOVES_GAUNTLETS]
[NAME:gauntlet with bracers:gauntlets with bracers]
[ARMORLEVEL:2]
[UPSTEP:2]
[SHAPED]
[LAYER:ARMOR]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:20]
[LAYER_PERMIT:15]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:6]
[SCALED]
[BARRED]
[METAL]
[HARD]


   **** Foot and leg armor ****

[ITEM_SHOES:ITEM_SHOES_CHAUSSE]
[NAME:chausse:chausses]
[METAL_ARMOR_LEVELS]
[CHAIN_METAL_TEXT]
[UPSTEP:MAX]
[LAYER:UNDER]
[COVERAGE:150]
[LAYER_SIZE:20]
[LAYER_PERMIT:10]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[HARD]
[METAL]
[SOFT]
[LEATHER]
[STRUCTURAL_ELASTICITY_CHAIN_ALL]

[ITEM_SHOES:ITEM_SHOES_BOOTS]
[NAME:boot with greave:boots with greaves]
[ARMORLEVEL:1]
[METAL_ARMOR_LEVELS]
[UPSTEP:1]
[LAYER:OVER]
[COVERAGE:100]
[LAYER_SIZE:25]
[LAYER_PERMIT:15]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:6]
[METAL]
[LEATHER]
[HARD]

I of course welcome ideas, help and suggestions!


(edit: typos)

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

I thought it works on joints only, I haven't tried it on limbs. Anyway, since it works without it, why NERVOUS?

Vanilla Joints or ABS joints?

the NERVOUS tag on Limbs is cause crippling from broken bones (see ABS)

And why NERVOUS? because any BP with NERVOUS controls all attached BP's (or in BP's it is internal/embedded in)

Vanilla DF (afaik) a upper arm bone can be broken and the creature would not be affected (well in pain yes but the arm would still work)

[Askot Bokbondeler]

ptw

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

oops

[Deon]

Vanilla DF (afaik) a upper arm bone can be broken and the creature would not be affected (well in pain yes but the arm would still work)

I just ran a short test:


NERVOUS is totally redundant in this case.

P.S. I think it will work this way: if you break the bone and NOT cut the nerve, the arm will stop functioning anyway. I think. I need to test more.

[Tsuchigumo550]

Just a thought, but maybe one of the few mods circulating that give battle logs more detail? Like differently named attacks. For instance, instead of "Urist McFighter stabs Goblin in the lower body..."  it could also be "Urist McFighter (impales/runs through/prods) stabs Goblin in the lower body..."

[Jeoshua]

As far as further development, I really would love to see the fingers have bones and connective tissues.  Also, a "palm" piece for the hand, itself.  It should be possible to be hit in the back of the hand and lose control of all one's fingers, yet not lose the ability to wield a shield.

I've just noticed that in Adventure mode and the Arena that if someone is hit in the hand, they lose fingers immediately.  It's like they're just fat sausages and even the slightest hit with a blade will cut right through them.

Also, there could be some room for "abstraction" of the system.  Instead of modeling the "fifth right floating rib" and all that, could it be possible to just have a "ribcage" object that protects most of the organs, sans stomach and guts?  I mean I'm all for the detail, but I really don't care if someone gets hit in the "right back wisdom tooth" so much as I care that they took a mace to their teeth...

In short?  I'm 110% for functional details like bones in fingers, lower back strikes that leave one unable to walk but able to crawl and weild a weapon, but deathly against stupid details like 32 individual teeth and a correct number of ribs, when group objects would adequately suffice.  Seriously, does anyone really care that Urist just took a rapier to his right upper eye tooth?  Or do you really just care that he took a SWORD to his MOUTH?

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

@Deon

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Vanilla DF (afaik) a upper arm bone can be broken and the creature would not be affected (well in pain yes but the arm would still work)

I just ran a short test:
http://i.imgur.com/m8Kzc.jpg

NERVOUS is totally redundant in this case.

P.S. I think it will work this way: if you break the bone and NOT cut the nerve, the arm will stop functioning anyway. I think. I need to test more.

Well your photo and your "P.S." both show and state a "motor nerve" being severed. But sen. and motor nerves never heal and are severed from EDGED attacks and "shaking". But bones can heal, and the fact that only STRUCTUAL tissues like BONES only show meaning in STANCE and GRASP body parts (from my testing with inorganic creatures this is true) where as NERVOUS in a tissue and on a Body Part make it control all child bodyparts (control of an body part it is INTERAL or EMBEDDED in like SPINES)

See creatures in vanilla are not affected by having a BONE in their LIMB body parts broken due to the fact that the effects of damaged STRUCTUAL tissues are not linked to LIMB (which it should be, but alas it is not, maybe this should be suggested to Toady. Thus no need for my ABS) for now all LIMB does is allow it to be used to WREASTLE with if they are connected to a GRASP Body Part (anyone verify this?).

So in short:
Without LIMBs having the NERVOUS tags (in the body_default) and all or certain BONE tissues having the NERVOUS tag within the LIMBs, broken bones are nothing but an annoyance to the creature something to shrug off (to me if my leg or thigh bone was broken I won't be using that leg at all to walk with)

STRUCTUAL tissues don't affect LIMB Body Parts only GRASP and STANCE (LIMB should be included in the list but it is not)

@Tsuch550

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think Grimlocke is working on that, or maybe just new/balancing weapons/armor. But more flavourful attacks would be interesting, but Don't know if it would be realistic. because "runs through" to me in my head I think of someone ramming a sword through someones guts/chest. But to DF you can have "Dwarf 1 runs through Goblin1's right hand with his iron sword" which to me now looks as if he literally ran through the goblins hand with the aid of his sword.

Combat Flavour is a very hard thing to work with, due to the fact they can be used on "any" bodypart

@JeoShua

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I believe fingers/toes have those tissues already, but for the "Palm" and "Back" could be done the same way "skulls" and "ribs" work, wrapping around or being placed on a certain part of a body part. But for making those certain parts of the hand to control or do different effects when damaged would be hard and next to impossible to do
And yes vanilla and right now fingers are just tubes connected to the hands also the 9th reply (mine) has complete fingers and even knuckles, of course that will requirework on your end to put them in.

General-ize-ing things like teeth to me is fine, but a simple "ribcage" might cause odd and unwanted effects. Indiv ribs I like cause seeing "the Right True rib is broken and jammed into the right lung" looks better then "the ribcage is broken and jammed into the heart" makes me thing that the entire ribcage has now just got jammed into one little organ, which paints a weird picture in my head

But I agree on the "Teeth" part

Seriously, does anyone really care that Urist just took a rapier to his right upper eye tooth?  Or do you really just care that he took a SWORD to his MOUTH?

As for any modding work I've lost all my data and modding work so I kinda rage quit on that. So my complete fingers are here http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=104222.msg3082659#msg3082659 to me complete toes are not really an issues since when I think about it, toes are really short, and even when people get toes cut off it's usally DF style the whole thing goes.

P.S. to Deon
If you can get the same Effect of my ABS with vanilla settings, or modified version, I'd like to be corrected. But all of my research and testing has shown my way is needed, also Does the JOINT tag on a bodypart respect the STRUCTAL tissues and cripple the limb? cause I swear I've seen a creature in vanilla have a broken kneecap and be just fine.

[Deon]

I've made all my tests with an edged weapon, damn . Thanks for telling.

cause I swear I've seen a creature in vanilla have a broken kneecap and be just fine.

Any time I break a joint, the bodypart under it stops working for me. If I break a shoulder with my wrestling moves, the creature drops its weapon.

[Hugo_The_Dwarf]

I've made all my tests with an edged weapon, damn . Thanks for telling.

cause I swear I've seen a creature in vanilla have a broken kneecap and be just fine.

Any time I break a joint, the bodypart under it stops working for me. If I break a shoulder with my wrestling moves, the creature drops its weapon.

No problem and thanks for the JOINT update. I guess we can safely say JOINT, GRASP, and STANCE all rely on a STRUCTUAL tissue. But then again it could be MUSCLE that JOINTs need I wonder what type of tissue a JOINT requires to function