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[ansontan2000]

Ptw.

[Immortal]

I have something to add for once!
We won't need to send a supply team down for atleast a week after we send them in. In that time we should be able to fabricate several small air cyclinders. We don't need large ones, just enough for a one man two way trip. I don't know how much air a person needs to consume but would this be an adequate solution?

[Mr. Palau]

I have something to add for once!
We won't need to send a supply team down for atleast a week after we send them in. In that time we should be able to fabricate several small air cyclinders. We don't need large ones, just enough for a one man two way trip. I don't know how much air a person needs to consume but would this be an adequate solution?

Bags of air, air cylinders, either way basicly we need some self contianed air for supplier. Containers would weigh more than the leather though, and make the guy work harder as he moes up and down to the team. The only reason metel contianers are usually used, I believe, is because the air contained is pressurized. We don't have the equipment to pressurize air, and for carrying non-pressurazid air the leather bag, with the glue applied so it doesn't let air out, would be much lighter, and easier to make. Our forgers will be busy making the pipes, so theyh won't have time to build new metel things, but some random guys could build leather bags.

[10ebbor10]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Actions for the next week:

6 Engineers and 5 scientists work with the 6  merchant drivers and their (3?)cars:
1) Gladly offer the merchants energy, remind them that the only reason we didn't give them 50 energy before they left was because of the lack of time rush because of the food shortage, which we were aiming to help with. Ask how the mining camp is, after our food delivery. Ask what they think a good trade run/ trade good would be (ie, who wants what). Ask if they know of any sources of sand or clay around here; explain that with the forge we can create glass or ceramic objects, which could be valuable for trade. (Sand first, if dice say only 1 discussion gets completed out of these 2).
They removing the old armor plates, and if any new plates are available, fit them to the first car.
The Scientists in the group design better armor plates for the cars, aiming to make the cars lighter and quicker.

1 Scientists Collects a dirt sample, from the most sandy looking area within shooting range of the fence (inside or out), and place it in the furnace. (If it  accidentally spills, the possibility of high carbon content won't hurt the iron, and silicon is typically what ends up in the slag anyway)

(GM: what is the best mix of people for running the furnace?) 100% blacksmiths
4 scientists, 3 engineers, 2 builders run the furnace
Fire up the furnace, smelting as much iron as possible (half ours, half merchants). Keep slag, it'll contain the trace minerals (possibly in a mixture we cannot ever separate, but that's a problem for later).

5 scientists, 5 builders consult with the 5 scientists working on the cars to shape the 6 resources into the first set of armor plates.
the remaining output (4+ resources) 3 engineers forge: wire drawing tools, and an extrusion press (the press would have to be electrically powered, the wire drawing tools could be either manual or electric.
(i'll be thinking about making things like I-Beams with the extrusion press)

6 scientists develop a better hose building process, using the glue.

19 farmers farm our 4 plots? Replant the vegies with grain.
5 builders build further irrigation systems if it needed (i'm not sure if 1 or all of the plots got irrigation)
if that is not needed/done, then they build a 5th farm plot
TODO: plant trees on the previously cleared tree area. Food producing trees, but with an option to cut them down for lumber once they are mature. (2 months to first food, monthly food after that?, need water for the first month)

5 soldiers on lookout duty (fence is off)
the remaining 30 soldiers, 1 farmer and 3 civies help with:
farm construction/work.
Armor plates
Tool construction at the forge
remaining work time:
half work on creating hose, under the directions of the scientists who are also working on using glue to make better hose,
the other half process more Leuks.

I take the other leader, and show him the radio we are making, while we work to finish it. While we work, ask about sources of electronics. Also ask if they would reduce the weekly trade penalty, if we design better armor plates for them (1.25% again, no change to the minimum).
(continue designing / making better plates,even if he doesn't agree).

The remaining 6 scientists, 4 engineers turn of the generator, then move the alternator to the windmill. After that they continue searching the lab for the parts storage associated with the nano-factory, or the lab which made it.

Over the course of the week the merchants recharge their vehicles( -50 Power) and the  armor plates of the vehicles are removed(+6 scrap).One of the vehicles even has his new armor plates attached. The scientist did their best to crate an optimal design, and it's certain it will be better then the previous one, which was just a collection of metal bits bolted on top of each other. The merchants know nothing about the local geological situation and aren't willing to give away any information on trade routes. The food shortage in the mining camp isn't resolved, since it is a chronic food shortage( Ie the camp doesn't produce enough food to feed itself) rather then an acute one.( Ie there's no food left). For now their stocks will do, but they're almost always buying food.

The scientist wanders around the perimeter, but finds no sand. Looks like the bunker was build in a rather rocky area.

The forge team manages to smelt 14 iron ores.

65 The scientist work hard, and manage to build 7 good armor  plates.  (6 per vehicle). They have some time left, so they help work on the wire drwing tools. They can't make a press yet, since they lack a powerfull engine( or an engine at all.) However, they know got enough tools to make anything not too complex.

More hose is created. Thanks to the glue it is also mostly air/water tight. +40 meter of hose.

The builders construct irrigation for 2  more plots. Thanks to the help of the others, they manage to get the last plot done.
The remainder of the people sets to work on hoose creation/ Leukrokottats processing, and manage to get  80 meters done.

Varinius works on the radio, and a basic reciever is made. The merchant answers that they don't really know any electronics producing colonies, and that the best place to get them is in one of the trading settlements. These military oriented bases focus on keeping an area around them secure, and levie tolls on all that comes through. Because of the relative safety, markets are generally located near them.

The generator is moved towards the windmill, and begins producing power, sadly the wind isn't very consistent, and isn't lowing very hard.
Other group: Arrived
15 soldiers(  10 armed)
5 engineers
6 drivers
4 civilians( including leader)

Date: Third week of march ( every month has four weeks) 27 A.A
Bunker/Fort:? Spes: South America

Spoiler:  Heroes (click to show/hide)

Varinius Spyridon:Engineer. +2 Attack, + 2 defense
-Tobias: Scientist.  (hurt: broken leg: 2 weeks left)

Spoiler:  Supplies (click to show/hide)

- 33 Iron ore+ 20 copper ore
- 11 resources (metal)
- 7 metal bars/sheets
- 10 resources (wood)
- 8 biological resources ( Leukrocrat processed corpse)
- 2 pots of glue
- 155 meter of leather hose
- 1 AT-cannon(5 ammo)
- 15 rifles( +4 to attack)
- 9 crude axes( +4 to attack, doubles woodcutting gains)
- 6 carpentry tools( Can turn logs into planks
- 4 ammo cases
- 25 food units(1 food feeds 1 person for 1 week)
- 275 grain.( Edible raw, preparation needed before tastyiness)
- 0 edible bark (needs prep)
- 4 carts. 1 has26/30hp others fine(75 l each)
- 2 Leukrocrat corpses (1 40% gathered)
- Small Natural gas tank( 12.5%. A full tank last 2 months at full capacity)
-Oscilloscope
-1 sattelite transmitter
-1 radio reciever: (+-50%)

Spoiler: People and livestock (click to show/hide)

20 Soldiers
29 Scientists
12 Engineers
12 Builders
20 Farmers

8 Adult rabbits
0 little rabbits

Spoiler: Buildings (click to show/hide)

- Nuclear bunker: ?? Unpowered, Acces impossible
- Fence: 200/200 hp ( 10  PWunits/ week) OFFLINE
- (2)Gates 100/ 100 hp(N/E)
- Anti-Vehicle Reinforcements: 25/25 hp N and E
- (1) NE  Watchtower100/100 (AT cannon)
- (1) NW Watchtower: 100/100 hp
- (1) SE  Watchtower 10/100
- (1) SW Watchtower 65/100
-  Farms: Can grow 4 types of plants at once. Requires 5 people working per plant type. Requires water.
             -(1) Grain(4 weeks)   3 left ( 275 food)(50 liters of water a week)
             -(1) Grain( 4 weeks ) 2 left(275 food) (50 liters of water a week)
             -(1) Grain(4 weeks)   3 left (275 food) (50 liters of water a week)
             -(1) Vegetables(2weeks) Gathered( 110 food) (50 liters of water a week)
          -Water tank: 575/3000 liter 30 hp
- Rabbit hutch: 8/20 capacity
- Secret Research Lab: Heavily damaged, looted( Searched 44%)
    - Capacitor: 645/10000 PW units 50/ 50hp
    - Emergency power generator 100/100 hp (400, 200 PW units/week) Alternator needed.
    - Solar pannels: 5PW/week
    - Windmill: 50/50 hp + bellows: 25/25 hp  . Connected to alterantor
    - Kitchen: 75/75 hp (Allows 1 person to prepare 50 food.)
    - Electrical blast furnace + Manual Smithy: 100/100 hp( 100PW units/ week)
    - Back-up mainframe: 50/100 hp ( Requires simple electronics)
    - Nanoship constructor: 5/100 hp( Needs special components)

Spoiler: Surroundings (click to show/hide)

-Background Radiation: Safe
-River valley: 2  hours to the East
-Mine settlement: 1 week to the south
-Raiders city: 8 weeks to the East
-Mysterious settlement: Somewhere to the South

Spoiler: Recipes (click to show/hide)

-Crossbow: 2 biological, 1 wood)
-Tools: 1 wood, 1 metal
Gas Tanks:
Large: 5 metal bars
Small: 2 metal bars
Carts ( 2 metal, 2 wood per cart) 
Tools : 1 wood, 1 metal per 2 tools
Hose
Glue

-Normal people: 0 attack, 0 defense
-Soldiers: 2 Attack, 4 defense
-Gate: 1 Attack 4 Defense
-Fence: 2 attack 6 defense
-Antivehicle thingies: 2 Attack 0 defense
-Watchtower: No Attack: 8 defense
- A-T Cannon: 8 Attack No  defense( Damage spread)
-Armored Vehicle: 0 attack 6 Defense
-Mutant ape: 1 Attack, 1 defense 1 hp
-Wild Dogs: 4 Attack, -4 defense 3hp
-Giant crocodile: 2 attack, 4 defense 10hp
-Leukrokottas: 6 Attack 8 Defense 15 hp

Spoiler:  New Gm note (click to show/hide)

The basic point of heroes are that they are either people who did something awesome and are declared so by the community, or +-PC characters of a single suggester

[/quote]

[Mr. Palau]

Given that we now have 155 meters of house we should just use that for our air supply to the bunker. We would only need an extra 300 or so to make it to bunker and live support, compared with 450 meters of metal pipe. It is also pretty air tight with the glue applied. We will likely need more glue so some people will need to burn more bones and add acid.

Try to talk merchents into continuing the trade between us and the mining settlement in exchange for sweetening the deal, more profit goes to them is all I can think of in terms of benefits we can give to them.

Also if that doesn't work we might be able to divert some of the farmers to other tasks, given we have so much food and the traders are leaving for somewhere faraway, presumably not taking our food with them, and the place doens't have a food shortage. So we should have the farmers work on helping us getting into the bunker, or producing grain so that we can export it later and it doesn't require preservation to not spoil over a long period of time.

[10ebbor10]

Oh, I probably should have added that the closest trading hub, ie the one the merchants are heading towards, is 2 weeks away( 1 way).

[Mr. Palau]

Oh, I probably should have added that the closest trading hub, ie the one the merchants are heading towards, is 2 weeks away( 1 way).

Merchent's know if the trading hub offers good prices for food or no? Will hav eto ask them that next time If you feel you re not at liberty to answer.

[10ebbor10]

Oh, I probably should have added that the closest trading hub, ie the one the merchants are heading towards, is 2 weeks away( 1 way).

Merchent's know if the trading hub offers good prices for food or no? Will hav eto ask them that next time If you feel you re not at liberty to answer.

Price vary charply. Demands on supply and demand.

[Mr. Palau]

Oh, I probably should have added that the closest trading hub, ie the one the merchants are heading towards, is 2 weeks away( 1 way).

Merchent's know if the trading hub offers good prices for food or no? Will hav eto ask them that next time If you feel you re not at liberty to answer.

Price vary charply. Demands on supply and demand.

Then I say we have our farmers who just gathered the vegtables beign working on the construciton of the pipes, while the others continu growing grain. I don't see why we would send food with the traders if we are uncertain we will get a good price for it.

The other option is of course that the farmers continue farming grain and we store it until the merhcents are willing to trade between us and the mining settlement again, which is possibly never because we don't know if they will coem back although with all the deals we give them it is likely. Then we have them take it all to the mining settlement so we can buy something from them in exchange. I don't think it's really worth it as I don't see us needing that much from the mining settlement after we get into the bunker.

[andy_t_roo]

...I don't see why we would send food with the traders if we are uncertain we will get a good price for it.

The other option is of course that the farmers continue farming grain and we store it until the merhcents are willing to trade between us and the mining settlement again, ... I don't think it's really worth it as I don't see us needing that much from the mining settlement after we get into the bunker.

Food is the only thing we have to trade at the moment.
We need: high quality magnetic materials, electric motors, gas, gas tanks, electronics, ammunition / chemicals to make ammo (primarily sulfur,  Nitric Acid) , weapons
Crossed out things: things we can make ourselves.
We have Iron magnets we can make. We have equipment to make wire. These 2 together make motors
We can make medium quality gas tanks.
If we make ammonia, we can then make nitric acid, then guncotton/nitrocelulose for powder for bullets.
(the iron catalyst for the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber-Bosch process is all we need there, and a supply of hydrogen, or methane).


Alternatively, we could go and get our supply of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diazotroph bacteria from the bunker once it is powered, and produce ammonia directly.

Once we have biofuels running, all this is much easier, as we can electrolyse water to get hydrogen, because electricity is cheap, but fuel is expensive.

--
Re: Food based trade goods: biofuels - Now that we have the forge going, we are going to need fuel for our furnace, so i was going to turn our excess food production into liquid fuel production (which would be quite valuable, and would allow us to run the generator without worrying about running out of gas.

This was also why i wanted the trees planted ; 1 tree plot + 1 vegi plot would provide us with enough food to feed us, (we may need an occasional rotation of grain) 4 farm plots of biofuels would provide us with a high value trade good, and make us fuel independent, allowing us to continually run the furnace / other items.

I can see that we are going to run into problems with electricity, as we only have enough energy to smelt our current materials, and nothing more, unless we either get biofuels going, it turns out to become windy, or we can buy another 20 solar panels.

Even once we get the nanoFactory going, we are going to need raw resources, as the nanofactory can only modify the shape and base chemical composition of materials, so it can turn sand into glass beakers, wood into carbon fiber, etc ..., but it can't just "make a plastic chair" out of nothing (well, CO2 in the air, but it would be much quicker if made from a lump of wood).

--
This weeks work in next post.

Hmm, can we make crude motors - and trade them ...

[andy_t_roo]

Tobias sits at the Entrance to the lab (he isn't moving around with that leg). In a minor ceremony, he is presented with the new radio, the first important Item we have created. He spends the week scanning for radio transmissions. He also has the oscilloscope attached, so if there is other transmissions with some weird modulation he notes them, even if he has no clue what they actually are. He also thinks about how to improve it (it is only noted as 50% done in the supplies list)

10 Builders build a 5th farm, irrigated.
16 farmers farm the farms, and if they have free time help the other farm work (replant vegies on the vegie plot) (nothing planted or harvested this week on the other 3 plots)
4 farmers plant trees on the tree plot. (apple trees, good for food, no good for wood)

5 scientists, 3 engineers, 2 builders run the furnace, with the 5 scientists aiming to learn how blacksmithing works (ie, become blacksmiths, for permanent running of the forge) (i assume engineers have a small bonus to forge operation, blacksmiths would have a large one?)
The furnace smelts 4 copper, then the rest iron.
4 copper, 4 iron go to project P
6 resources smelted for the next set of armor plates (6 engineers, 6 drivers create, fit them)
(Project P has priority if in, but we have spare plates atm)

20 scientists, 8 engineers work on project P:
10 soldiers provide man-power

20 soldiers (14 guns, 6 axes), 4 scientists, the merchant leader, head out. some of the (armed) soldiers do a double water run (8x75L ; 600L). The rest gather wood resources. The scientists again try to identify any high quality wood source trees, they discuss what they see with the merchant leader.

the 3 remaining civies work in the kitchen preparing food.

We separate 1 50 unit capacitor bank from our power bank.
We then split it into 5 seperate 10 unit capacitors and wire them up with a light bulb, to provide a basic lamp.
(provide 1 location light for 1 week, for 10 energy?)

--
Project P Details

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Project P consumes an estimated 10 iron, 4 copper, and 2 biological resources, and outputs a Homo-Polar Generator (wiki) (Patent), and a magnet forger.

build a coil of wire (with 3 of the copper the forge makes), wired up as a solenoid (aiming to maximize the strength of the magnetic field) (the coil diameter is the same as the circular disks created below)
We Now have a Magnet Creator, for magnetic material forged within the coils. (cooling a magnetic material from above the curie temperature to below in the presence of a magnetic field is how you make a permanent magnet)

the 4 new iron sheets are cast as large circles and magnetized. (10 power?)
Act surprised when traces of neodymium, and residual copper from previous furnace operation result in stronger magnets than expected.

6 iron sheets are formed into 2 millstone type disks. The 4 magnetized sheets are then placed top and bottom of each millstone type disk (now we have 2 magnetized millstones)

1 copper is drawn into iron wire.
a leather belt is created long enough to go around both magnetized millstones, and the wire is glued on the inside. One of the circular sheets used to form each millstone is slightly smaller, so there is a groove for this to run in.

1 metal is formed into 2 axels.

The alternator is moved from the windmill back to the generator
Both of these wheels are now moved into the back room of the kitchen, and mounted as a new Homo-Polar Generator. 2 disks done because we can't create any kind of sliding electrical contact at the moment, and a pair of disks eliminates this loss.

You don't need strong magnets for this application, as weaker magnets just extract power more slowly, but with a windmill, that would just mean that it can spin a little faster in any given wind to generate the same power.

Power generated is proportional to the length of the cylinder, the linear velocity of the edge of the cylinder (radius and rotational speed),  and the strength of the magnetic field.

(untill we have better magnets, this'll have to do for a windmill generator - this technique isn't used as a generator in modern times, because you can do it much more compactly with even a poor quality alternator. The advantage of this is that this setup can store lots of energy (angular momentum), and provide it quickly (very low internal resistance). This technique when reversed, is used in a rail-gun (electrical power creating velocity, rather than velocity creating electrical power).

In the future the disks can be easily re-forged into other things, or used as a high current electrical storage device.

GM note : i'm not sure how much copper is needed to make the magnet forger, because 1 unit of metal seems to be about 1/20 m3, and that would make 600m of 1cm diameter wire, or 7000m of 3mm diameter wire.
(1/20th m3 is equal to 1.5m x 1.5m by 2.22cm (ie, the armor plates on the car) ). We might have used way to much copper there, at 4 units all up.

[andy_t_roo]

OOC:
Note to self : at 1300 words, over the last 2 posts, i think i may be getting into this a bit too much, but i am enjoying reading about all sorts of things.
I've never looked into metal forging before, and have never seen a homopolar generator.

anyway, see if you can find the links to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactive_distillation (2 clicks from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator )

[andy_t_roo]

Medical Supplies - 10Ebbor10 - how are we fixed for medical supplies - it must be ok, if we can research basic anti-venom, and aid a broken leg in 1 month ...


Otherwise, medical supplies could be needed, untill we can get the nano-fab going to manufacture the more complex chemicals...

[10ebbor10]

Medical Supplies - 10Ebbor10 - how are we fixed for medical supplies - it must be ok, if we can research basic anti-venom, and aid a broken leg in 1 month ...


Otherwise, medical supplies could be needed, untill we can get the nano-fab going to manufacture the more complex chemicals...

The snakes weren't that poisonous and you got some basic futuristic first aid kits. Nothing special, but you won't die from the flu or anything.

[Mr. Palau]

For project P I see it's merits but don't we already have a generator?

Here's what I think we should do with the farming while the trader's are gone, because you are right we do need more things long-term, although not much medium term.  We have the farmers who are not working and those who just gathered the vegtables plant trees, continue working the grain, and then when the grian is finished plant more trees, so during the 4 weeks the trader's are gone everyone plants trees or works on tree plot construction to insure long term food gains. Since it would be kinda useless to grow food with no one to take it to the mining settlement this will help us provide food to the mining settlement when the traders are here to take it too them. After the traders are back give them the grain we harvested over the time they were gone and have them take it to the mining settlement to trade it.  When the traders get back have the farmers switch back to grain because we now have the ability to send food to the mining settlement.

Whada'ya think?