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[teethering]

Apologies if this has been asked already, did my best to scan the thread.

With minecarts being implemented will mining itself be variable now, in terms of amount of material produced out of a single square?  What I mean by that is that it's hard to see a lot of use in a long track being built to a single vein that's going to be exhausted very quickly.

[Dae]

I thought about them, but they didn't change the gameplay that much or influenced the basic design of fortresses.

Same here. None of recent changes did affect my gameplay significantly. This tracks-connecting-stockpiles-to-workshops thing will probably have much more influence for me, as it will actually force me to re-think the approach I used since times of 40d.

How about burrows ? Healthcare ? Advanced military ?

If I recall correctly, a while back a wounded dwarf would just be hauled to a bed (if he was lucky enough not to die of starvation first) and would rest there probably for ever. No crutches so even if considered healed you would sometime see dwarves crawling around, some with their intestines hanging behind, just going about their business. And the military, god the military, so many changes happened it's basically day and night.
I don't know if the carts will have more of an influence. We'll have to wait for the release for that.

[isitanos]

Minecarts? Cool.


Will we get railroad switches linkable to levers? Actually, I'm kind of wondering how you'll handle turns, overall. And will we be able to build long slopes with a small gradient, so that minecarts can get momentum even on a single z-level?

Here's hoping Toady tackles smarter building after this. I'm much more interested in digging a large pit or a tower without having to micromanage the building of each floor so dwarves don't get stuck, than in minecarts or clothing fixes.

[Neonivek]

I'm wondering, will we be able to have dwarves ride minecarts? I'm just wondering if we will be able to make dwarven roller coasters.

To my knowledge they did have a device that did this.

They did not ride minecarts to my knowledge.

Though they did in Minecraft... in fact... Roller Coasters are really popular in Minecraft.

I guess that means no one will be happy until Toady adds in exploding cacti men.

[Mel_Vixen]

to my knowledge (i was in some Mines here over the years) the carts were sometimes used for transporting the miners but often they got dedicated carts for people after a while.

Hmmm of miencarts and preasurplates can coop? that would work nicely with the railroad switches isitanos mentioned.

As for traps: i can easely see a trap where a cart rolls down 10 Zs of ramps just to crash in flatten a goblin. After all filled with a ton or two of stone these things would pack some punch. It would also make amusing accidents. To bad it wont roll over dwarfen feet.

[Mr S]

The minecart rolls over Urist McNotPayingAttention's third toe, left foot. The severed part sails off in an arc.

I'm just waiting for your Legendary Lasher to give birth in the dining hall, then cart her baby onto the battle field in one of these things, using it as a tank!!

[Dae]

Seriously, I know it's great, but I think you're all setting your hopes a TAD too high here.

[jellsprout]

I thought about them, but they didn't change the gameplay that much or influenced the basic design of fortresses.

Same here. None of recent changes did affect my gameplay significantly. This tracks-connecting-stockpiles-to-workshops thing will probably have much more influence for me, as it will actually force me to re-think the approach I used since times of 40d.

For me the Magma Sea had the biggest impact. Assured magma on every embark at the bottom of the map. This forces you to either build your fortress very deep, to separate your metal and glass industries from the rest of the fortress or to bring up magma to the surface through difficult and time consuming schemes. The hauling revamp will increase the overall efficiency of the fortress, but it won't have as big a change to the core design of your fortress as the Magma Sea.

[NW_Kohaku]

to my knowledge (i was in some Mines here over the years) the carts were sometimes used for transporting the miners but often they got dedicated carts for people after a while.

Hmmm of miencarts and preasurplates can coop? that would work nicely with the railroad switches isitanos mentioned.

As for traps: i can easely see a trap where a cart rolls down 10 Zs of ramps just to crash in flatten a goblin. After all filled with a ton or two of stone these things would pack some punch. It would also make amusing accidents. To bad it wont roll over dwarfen feet.

That's a very interesting idea - if cart rails can have pressure plates built under them, so that minecarts passing through will be able to do things like open paths or switch tracks, then it also opens the possibilities of "mine cart logic" as well as "fluid logic" or "animal logic" in dwarfputing.

Amusingly, it may open the door to creating a "dwarfputer" where data is transmitted in the form of an automated cart system bearing cargo as its data.

[Cruxador]

Apologies if this has been asked already, did my best to scan the thread.

With minecarts being implemented will mining itself be variable now, in terms of amount of material produced out of a single square?  What I mean by that is that it's hard to see a lot of use in a long track being built to a single vein that's going to be exhausted very quickly.

From the devlog:

For minecarts to make sense for mining, we'll have to change how mining works, but I want to get the carts moving first.

Variable amounts of produced material (and waste) are things that have been suggested. It's probable that we'll always see material produced but will see a lot of waste and not as much useful rock with low-skill miners.

The minecart rolls over Urist McNotPayingAttention's third toe, left foot. The severed part sails off in an arc.

I'm just waiting for your Legendary Lasher to give birth in the dining hall, then cart her baby onto the battle field in one of these things, using it as a tank!!

That sort of thing could go in now, but it also might wait until Toady does workplace injuries in general.

Seriously, I know it's great, but I think you're all setting your hopes a TAD too high here.

This is Toady, and since it's the winner of the ESV it's reasonable that he's going to put some time into it. Obviously not every possible thing that people want will happen, but it's reasonable to assume that what we get will be thorough and good.

to my knowledge (i was in some Mines here over the years) the carts were sometimes used for transporting the miners but often they got dedicated carts for people after a while.

Hmmm of miencarts and preasurplates can coop? that would work nicely with the railroad switches isitanos mentioned.

As for traps: i can easely see a trap where a cart rolls down 10 Zs of ramps just to crash in flatten a goblin. After all filled with a ton or two of stone these things would pack some punch. It would also make amusing accidents. To bad it wont roll over dwarfen feet.

That's a very interesting idea - if cart rails can have pressure plates built under them, so that minecarts passing through will be able to do things like open paths or switch tracks, then it also opens the possibilities of "mine cart logic" as well as "fluid logic" or "animal logic" in dwarfputing.

Amusingly, it may open the door to creating a "dwarfputer" where data is transmitted in the form of an automated cart system bearing cargo as its data.

With a series of pressure plates that only go off at a certain weight or higher we could sort things from a single input according to weight. In a computing situation that means we could make a string of "if-then" statements based on type or quantity of input.

[NW_Kohaku]

With a series of pressure plates that only go off at a certain weight or higher we could sort things from a single input according to weight. In a computing situation that means we could make a string of "if-then" statements based on type or quantity of input.

Well, the main obstacle that I'm not sure we will get is that you would have to be able to construct pressure plates and rails in the same tile (or else be capable of not building a tile, and letting a cart skip the rails while going over a pressure plate tile without having massive problems).  Toady thus far has only said he was letting you carve rails in floors and ramps. 

Putting constructed objects in the same tile as one another has not really happened before, so it would be a new step forward if you could put pressure plates "under" another object.

The notion that rail switches would have to be pulled to manage traffic also raises problems, as if you are going to expect dwarves to be capable of navigating on their own, it would essentially require either that dwarves are capable of understanding how to pull those switches to change traffic flow as they require, or else that it would take the capacity to recognize that the tracks they are on can potentially change by the time that they actually get to a turn.  These are potentially much more advanced AI calculations than we actually have in the game right now...

[Jiri Petru]

Tracks can be carved in stone floors or stone ramps, and it keeps track of the four directions in each tile...

Wait... four directions? Does this mean no diagonal movement? Why?

[Neonivek]

Tracks can be carved in stone floors or stone ramps, and it keeps track of the four directions in each tile...

Wait... four directions? Does this mean no diagonal movement? Why?

Simple... It would look very very weird.

[Sphalerite]

Since Toady has also mentioned wheelbarrows, and dwarves carrying bins, I suspect that the mine cart is going to act like a specialized form a wheelbarrow.  A dwarf pushes a cart to somewhere near stones, loads stones into the cart, then pushes the cart to somewhere near a stockpile and unloads it.  No rail switches, no roller coasters, no cart-based logic engines.  I'm more interested in how the dwarf behavior AI will work.  When will a dwarf decide to use a cart or wheelbarrow instead of jut carrying a single stone at a time?

[Mel_Vixen]

Tracks can be carved in stone floors or stone ramps, and it keeps track of the four directions in each tile...

Wait... four directions? Does this mean no diagonal movement? Why?

I think toady meant 4 Geomtric directions like this: | - / \ , thus horizontal, vertical and the two diagonals which should cover all 8 movementoptions.

edit:

so you could build this:

Code: [Select]



  /--\
 /    \
|      |
|      ß
 \    /
  \--/
a truly roughly circular track with a minecart (ß).