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Author Topic: The Failed Defense of Valorland!  (Read 19223 times)

Parsely

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Re: The Failed Defense of Valorland!
« Reply #195 on: May 14, 2014, 02:45:50 pm »

I claim this. The battle was lost, but the war has only just begun.

Coming soon to a board near you: In Defense of Valorland!: Battle for Flycastle
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 02:47:57 pm by GUNINANRUNIN »
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mastahcheese

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Re: The Failed Defense of Valorland!
« Reply #196 on: May 15, 2014, 12:23:49 pm »

The battle must go on!
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Might as well chalk it up to Pathos.
As this point we might as well invoke interpretive dance and call it a day.
The Derail Thread

IronyOwl

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Re: The Failed Defense of Valorland!
« Reply #197 on: May 15, 2014, 02:06:51 pm »

This started getting repetitive to run before I added the boss, with the static situation. I don't know how to fix that, but I think letting players have different ways to fight (fight to learn, fight defensively, etc) might have helped, instead of just "stab weak enemy." More objective based battles would have helped, where players could take different roles, somewhat like my failed "guard player X" mechanic (attacking engineers or their guards, while protecting something, maybe? It would need 8 players rather than 6). I liked the idea for throwing everyone into the boss battle, but everyone was oddly reluctant to attack the boss that could fairly easily one-shot them once I disabled respawns. I should have made it slightly easier to kill.
The problem, as I see it, was definitely with the choices available.

I mean, consider a flowchart for your average player. There's probably some [IF:GREEDVAL>CURRENT.EQUIP:FORAGE] thing at the start there, but then it's pretty much [IF:FULL.HEALTH:STAB.WEAKEST.ENEMY][ELSE:FLEE]. If any of us had survived long enough to be theoretically able to take the orcs, then you'd have had some risk/reward thing going on, but it'd still have mostly boiled down to impatience versus desire to live.

Different ways to fight might have helped, but unless it opened up more possibilities ("fighting to learn against frogmen and fighting defensively against orcs are comparable in terms of exp gain and survival rate, so which side benefits do I want more?") I suspect you'd have just added another static layer of "learn-fight" to the current decisionmaking issues.

Objective battles might have helped also, but again, I have to wonder what that'd have done to the decisionmaking process. I suppose having everyone flock to one objective or another might still be better than just grinding a numberless wall of frogmen, at least.


If it was me running it, and this is one of the reasons it's not, I'd have focused on player specialization and embracing the fact that players are likely going to die.

For specialization, I don't even necessarily mean healing/tanking/damage/ranged/magic/etc. That can be something as simple as Crush/Pierce/Slash or Heavy/Medium/Light, an elemental chart, Zodiac alignments, etc. Anything other than raw power that allows one player to look at a creature and think "oh gods no" while his buddy laughs with mirth is a good thing, I think. Perhaps combined with objective based combat, you could get some really interesting interactions out of that, since players have to choose between sticking with a group and sticking with what they're good at, groups have to reconcile doing what they're good at with being prepared for what they're not, and various objectives can have reasonably concrete differences in terms of what's guarding them.

For death, I'd add some kind of medal or achievement system that empowers your respawns. Currently there's only two real objectives- get stronger, and stay alive. If landing the killing blow on a frogman sergeant gives +3 starting stats next time, or grants ALL your future characters a +1 bonus to attack that doesn't reduce exp gain, or gives you money to spend on unlocking the Knight class, then suddenly you've got some potentially interesting decisions. Yes, you want to live, especially if you've managed to level your character up a little... but you also want the advantages that come with succeeding.

Granted, this might interfere with the "you are peasants, don't die (lol you'll die)" vibe of the game, and especially if it's poorly done might turn it into a pack of suicidal peasants hoping to rack up every achievement they can so they can at some point start leveling their "actual" character. But properly done, and especially if all or most of the rewards only applied to your next respawn, I think it could add some additional decisionmaking, if you're willing to sacrifice some of the peasantly terror for it.


But nobody actually followed my advice on stopping me :(
I'm actually curious if nobody really noticed that or if it was just the tragedy of the commons- everyone was very, very hopeful that someone else would engage the deathfrog demon in mortal kombat for the sake of the world, but they're currently busy with this other less fatal thing so good luck!
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Samarkand

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Re: The Failed Defense of Valorland!
« Reply #198 on: May 15, 2014, 03:15:09 pm »

For specialization, I don't even necessarily mean healing/tanking/damage/ranged/magic/etc. That can be something as simple as Crush/Pierce/Slash or Heavy/Medium/Light, an elemental chart, Zodiac alignments, etc. Anything other than raw power that allows one player to look at a creature and think "oh gods no" while his buddy laughs with mirth is a good thing, I think. Perhaps combined with objective based combat, you could get some really interesting interactions out of that, since players have to choose between sticking with a group and sticking with what they're good at, groups have to reconcile doing what they're good at with being prepared for what they're not, and various objectives can have reasonably concrete differences in terms of what's guarding them.

For death, I'd add some kind of medal or achievement system that empowers your respawns. Currently there's only two real objectives- get stronger, and stay alive. If landing the killing blow on a frogman sergeant gives +3 starting stats next time, or grants ALL your future characters a +1 bonus to attack that doesn't reduce exp gain, or gives you money to spend on unlocking the Knight class, then suddenly you've got some potentially interesting decisions. Yes, you want to live, especially if you've managed to level your character up a little... but you also want the advantages that come with succeeding.

Granted, this might interfere with the "you are peasants, don't die (lol you'll die)" vibe of the game, and especially if it's poorly done might turn it into a pack of suicidal peasants hoping to rack up every achievement they can so they can at some point start leveling their "actual" character. But properly done, and especially if all or most of the rewards only applied to your next respawn, I think it could add some additional decisionmaking, if you're willing to sacrifice some of the peasantly terror for it.
+1 to both these ideas, especially the second. Your character becomes expendable iff it advances future characters, and you need them to be expendable for this game to work.
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Parsely

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Re: The Failed Defense of Valorland!
« Reply #199 on: May 15, 2014, 05:48:17 pm »

Just got the compy back online moments ago. Gimme some time to update my other games for my patiently waiting players and then I'll get to work on this.

Cool ideas by the way Irony.
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Tiruin

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Re: The Failed Defense of Valorland!
« Reply #200 on: May 15, 2014, 05:56:55 pm »

A good idea for carry-overs is to make such a mechanic make sense in-game :p
Quote
Granted, this might interfere with the "you are peasants, don't die (lol you'll die)" vibe of the game, and especially if it's poorly done might turn it into a pack of suicidal peasants hoping to rack up every achievement they can so they can at some point start leveling their "actual" character. But properly done, and especially if all or most of the rewards only applied to your next respawn, I think it could add some additional decisionmaking, if you're willing to sacrifice some of the peasantly terror for it.
Like, souls.
Or, future training bonuses by a tactician.

Stuff like that. ;)
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Ochita

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Re: The Failed Defense of Valorland!
« Reply #201 on: May 15, 2014, 07:00:35 pm »

So... A game where we use souls to improve ourselves, along with a high chance of death and achivements..?

HMMM. Other than that, I think I would agree with most if not all of what ironyowl said.
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Sarrak

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Re: The Failed Defense of Valorland!
« Reply #202 on: May 16, 2014, 05:50:33 am »

System of achievements suggested by IronyOwl is interesting indeed. But I think it can be further simplified and improved...

1) No "Killed green frog - got +1 att in second life"-style achievements. Instead, your soul gets "valor" points that you can spend when trying new incarnation. It will simplify the process and allow people to make the character they really want to try, not the character they ended up with while killing critters. Obviously, unique monsters would give long-lasting effects in addition to valor. For example, permanent bonus to fire resistance after defeating Elder dragon sounds good.
2) While various aspects like attack, HP, weapons, resistances etc. can be bought directly for valor, I suggest making several "Backgrounds". They can be divided into "Social class", "Life experience" and "Inheritance"
-) "Social class" is a basic package everything else is applied onto. Peasant, Warrior, Knight, Paladin, Priest and other classes give different starting attack, HP and other stats that could be further improved.
-) "Life experience" - your paladin could have already made a career hunting trolls and must have some appropriate skills. For peasants it would be early-life jobs - like blacksmith, hunter, farmer - that give relatively small bonuses.
-) "Inheritance" stands for items of monetary value and money itself. Appropriate Class/Experience would unlock and/or give discount for different equipment.
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Samarkand

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Re: The Failed Defense of Valorland!
« Reply #203 on: May 16, 2014, 08:14:45 pm »

GUNINANRUNIN, when you get that game up you should post a link here. I'm interested.
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Parsely

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Re: The Failed Defense of Valorland!
« Reply #204 on: May 16, 2014, 08:20:20 pm »

Sure thing boss.
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