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Author Topic: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)  (Read 962049 times)

Mephansteras

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1380 on: August 23, 2012, 02:27:01 pm »

This all boils down to one of the statements the dev team made: "Ask 20 people what X-Coms means to them and you'll get 20 different answers"

For me, it looks like it'll manage to be X-com well enough, even if they've changed things I'd have preferred that the didn't.

People using cover and flanking to kill enemies? That's how people with guns actually fight. No problem there.

Class-based system? I'd have preferred a skill-based system, but it's not that big of a deal. The fact that you have to use what you're given makes it a bit different from most games, so that part might be interesting.

What makes it X-Com?

How about Chryssalids eating your guys and making more Chryssalids?

How about Sectoid Commanders mind controlling your people?

How about a rookie panicking and going nuts or running away?

How about blowing a hole in the wall to get at the aliens inside the building?

That's all in.

Sounds like X-Com to me.
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Virtz

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1381 on: August 23, 2012, 02:39:03 pm »

That you can't see any similarities in Mass Effect and this new XCOM just makes me think you don't have a clue.

If you don't see it my way, you're stoopid? O...kay...
Unlike calling someone a fanboy, which is totally alright.
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nenjin

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1382 on: August 23, 2012, 02:39:38 pm »

That you can't see any similarities in Mass Effect and this new XCOM just makes me think you don't have a clue.

If you don't see it my way, you're stoopid? O...kay...
Unlike calling someone a fanboy, which is totally alright.

When he self-admits to it, I think that's alright.
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Sharp

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1383 on: August 23, 2012, 02:49:37 pm »

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As a computer scientist I feel I know what I'm talking about when I say procedurally generated, apparently you don't because procedural generation doesn't mean generated from scratch, it means generated with an algorithm, an algorithm might just be a RNG but if it's generating content (like XCOM Maps) and enemies (like the equipment on Aliens) then it's still procedural generation.

*sigh* Yes, yes. Now remember what I said about where we are and what procedural generation means to people around here.
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You save before starting landing on a mission in XCOM and load it again you will get a different map, with possibly a different number of enemies who are possibly equipped differently, there are a lot of rules in place but there is no equipment template of what aliens will exactly be using.

It doesn't just randomly generate the profiles of the aliens. That should be pretty obvious. Nor does it "procedurally" generate them on a basis other than a random number and a random selection within the profiles for the aliens. Which, as far as any of us know, that's exactly how the new X-Com works.

I'm sorry what does procedurally generated mean to people here? I would assume it would be procedural generation. Did I say that this new X-Com doesn't have any procedural generation? AFAIK maps aren't procedurally generated in this new one. Your the one who brought up procedural generation.

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Well 1st of to address your second point, yes I know squad size starts at 4, hence why I said the 3 man team in mass effect slightly smaller then 4 man team in XCOM, and the slightly it goes up to is 6, big whoop. Great way to argue my point by just restating it.

So you're just bitching about squads being off by a couple for the sake of bitching then? Because you have no real point other than "derp, one game has 4 guys, and this game has 4 guys at some point, so they're the same." Or should we start comparing it to every game that has X playable characters? You have no point, other than you don't like it.

Oh good god, my point is that mass effect and new XCOM has small fire-team management as a similarity while old XCOM had large squad management. And I have stated multiple fucking times that I don't dislike this new XCOM game, I just don't consider it as an XCOM game.

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Secondly yes they are different games with different mechanics, I am saying that the gameplay is similar though, I'm not saying that this is a Mass Effect game, I am saying you can change the characters to mass effect characters and same for abilities and call it Mass Effect Tactics, very superficial changes. I don't see how me being an XCOM fanboy is affecting that in anyway whatsoever.

It makes you a fanboi because you're finding any trivial example to justify why you don't think it's good. Even if it's already beyond the point of being absurd.

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That you can't see any similarities in Mass Effect and this new XCOM just makes me think you don't have a clue.

Or, Jesus Christ, I give games credit for being different instead of trying to make tenuous comparisons between them to justify my fan butt-hurt-ness. Your example would be just as ridiculous if it were "XCOM is like Final Fantasy Tactics." Or any other game you could compare based on the tiny criteria you've chosen to use.

Is there similarity between XCOM and Final Fantasy Tactics, why yes there fucking is, I'm not going to say there isn't and say OMG they have no similarities whatsoever. My confusion lies in that you can't see similarity in other games.

And for the last fucking time. I don't think this new XCOM game is bad!
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Sharp

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1384 on: August 23, 2012, 02:59:18 pm »


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You save before starting landing on a mission in XCOM and load it again you will get a different map, with possibly a different number of enemies who are possibly equipped differently, there are a lot of rules in place but there is no equipment template of what aliens will exactly be using.

Actually everytime I saved before a mission it was the exact same one I kept landing at.

It's been a while since I have played the original due to compatibility issues but I'm pretty sure the map is generated when you land and start the mission, not when the mission appears on the Geoscape.
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IronyOwl

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1385 on: August 23, 2012, 03:15:57 pm »

Spoiler: Yo Sharp (click to show/hide)



I'd disagree that you can just say that cutting things makes it "not XCOM" whereas adding things makes it "XCOM plus stuff." If you change things, you change them, and then it's not the same anymore. Whether those things are being added or subtracted shouldn't directly matter for that.
What? That's not how things work. Set B contains the entirety of set A, plus more. Therefore, you can get the entirety of set A out of set B. Set C contains only parts of A. Therefore you cannot get the whole set A out of set C. (EDIT) And while you could argue that this doesn't always work with artistic works (as games might be viewed), for elements as big as features or gameplay elements I think it does.
No. Spaghetti and meatballs and caramel and rabid badger is not the same as spaghetti and meatballs, because there's no option to just have spaghetti and meatballs- the caramel and rabid badger are in there.

In a similar vein, spaghetti and meatballs with a different sauce or different meatballs are not "not spaghetti and meatballs" because you "took some stuff out." Same goes for using less onions or skipping the garlic.

And it provided a setting based on the events of X-Com, giving nostalgic throwbacks to that game while showing the consequences of the first alien war. A reboot just goes "we could do this better", and usually it's worse.
Especially considering what kind of weirdness they'd have to deal with to pick up where the last X-COM games left off, I'd say ignoring the previous games was a good decision. I'd much rather have traditional, on modern-ish Earth fighting terrestrial aliens X-COM than some sort of multidimensional far-future interstellar war type thing.

Personally I guess most of my dislike of this reboot stems from the fact that they're simplifying a turn-based game. Turn-based only works for me when it's complex. When playing it real-time would be too hectic or you'd miss some of the finer details. Here they're apparently simplifying it to a point where you could pretty much play it real-time without much loss of control. To me this is a turn-based system that's just there to waste my time.
Aside from smaller squad size, I'm honestly not sure what seems more RT-friendly about the new one than the original. Less inventory fiddling could count I suppose, but even that usually boiled down to "grab a grenade out of my backpack," and the need to reload sounds like it'll be more relevant here than it ever was in the original (save for rockets and such, presumably).



I think random maps are missing. Inventory is missing. Big Squads are missing. Multiple bases are missing (though that is not that much of an issue for me). Base Defence is missing. Probably something else I forgot. You have fewer decisions to make.
You have 20 Blaster Rifles and only 10 clips? Guess you can only give them to half of your guys. And hope they get some Elerium so you can produce more clips.

For me most of the additions are just a "nice to have" rather than being something substantial, if even that.
Random maps are a fair point.
Ask yourself honestly- how often, in the original, would you have genuinely missed everyone having a primary weapon, grenades/electroflares, and a side tool if they were the side tool guy?
"Big squads" is less of a feature and more of a design choice. Claiming smaller squads count as a "missing feature" is seriously pushing it unless you've got some specific consequence or benefit in mind, similar to how "Gun X is missing" is meaningless unless there's a specific "meaning there's no long-ranged weapons" or "so explosives are the only answer to heavily armored enemies now" type complaint to go with it.
Radar stations are in, I believe, which is about as far as "multiple bases" tended to go.
So there's one rare mission type that's gone. Unfortunate, I suppose, but how much does that really matter?
I'm not sure what decisions you're referring to.

The blaster rifle thing is nice in theory but never, ever happened, at least in my experience. The only times I ever ran out of ammo for anything was when I suffered a massive setback and was out of money, or when I derped up and forgot to buy/equip more ammo.

And I mean really, class features are "nice to have" or lower? You're complaining about not tracking rifle clip sizes but giving grunts a move while shooting maneuver is just "meh?"



Random maps sounds cool until you recall that the original's maps were hardly very 'different' even if they were random (and most of the time you were clearing the same ship layouts every single time - so give me a break).  Personally, I'd rather have loads of thought out maps with tons of unique features for new tactical situations as opposed to, "Oh look its another barn!  Only this one has a fence around it!  So different from the barn on the last map..."  If the new one is moddable enough to accept new crafted maps - even better. 
I'm unfortunately going to have to disagree with this, though- I hate that feeling of "Oh this level, yeah there's a gas station over there, and this really sweet sniper spot up that way..."

Blegh, but mods. Mods should solve everything...
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Sergius

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1386 on: August 23, 2012, 03:34:27 pm »

Unlike calling someone a fanboy, which is totally alright.

Ooo...kay...

Indeed I do, and as a fanboy I can gripe as much as I want of them using the name of the original, I griped about XCOM: Enforcer I can gripe about this.

« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 03:42:47 pm by Sergius »
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nenjin

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1387 on: August 23, 2012, 04:21:35 pm »

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Is there similarity between XCOM and Final Fantasy Tactics, why yes there fucking is, I'm not going to say there isn't and say OMG they have no similarities whatsoever. My confusion lies in that you can't see similarity in other games.

And for the last fucking time. I don't think this new XCOM game is bad!

I see the similarities between two TBS games. I'm just not using that as a justification for saying the newest game is degenerative. And that's between two TBS strategy games.

And saying you "don't think it's bad" does very little to disguise the fact the comparisons you're making are pejorative.
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Sharp

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1388 on: August 23, 2012, 04:37:17 pm »

Spoiler: Yo Sharp (click to show/hide)


Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ok we are reaching essay level wall of text area now so I won't quote directly under each section.

1) Mutons in spandex yes but scary looking, and mean in the intro video, anyway totally subjective (like every opinon).

2) You say streamline I say less features

3) It can be a pain to manage a large squad of soldiers but sometimes you needed all the plasma fodder you could get. The original had you in the mindset of you are outgunned by the aliens, you better shape up or be prepared for more horrendous casualties, tbh later on in the original I would just use 6-8 men in missions once I had enough firepower and armour to ease up on the time it took for a turn. From what I've seen of the new XCOM you don't seem outgunned by the aliens, they seem to die pretty easily with easy tactics.

4) I can only go by the maps I have seen so far which are small in comparison, and I don't know how much actual fog of war there is going to be, I mean one of the great things I loved about the original was your first guy steps out of the skyranger ramp and gets shot and you only know the direction, with the glam-cam of the new one I don't know if your going to get the same. Also the evil alien tactic at night where they have more vision then you so shoot you and scoot away was evil but this one seems to be move or shoot so you won't be getting that issue.

And I doubt the RNG will screw you over really, from what I have seen there are a limited number of maps but they have a various number of spawn points but I doubt it's going to be completely random so you can start of surrounded.

5) The original had a story but it didn't really force you into any specific mission except for the last one, the new one seems to be a mix of specific story missions and a some "random" ones.

I highly doubt you can say with any truth what most people did just like I can't but the premise was keeping the funding countries happy and to do so you would need to reach the missions before they disappeared so I personally would have at least 2 skyranger bases to get a nice response to any threat, and a contingency against losing a base invasion. The fact is though that it allowed you to have global management, from what I know of the new one you only have the one base, I don't know if you have multiple radar/interceptor bases as well but it still takes a while to circumnavigate the globe.

There was base management in the original because you were always at the risk of being invaded so it mattered very much where you place your access point and hangars and you had limited space so you actually had real decisions to make of what to build when and where while the new one just seems to be place stuff wherever you want but if it's close to a similar thing then its better and no base invasion.

Yes equipment management was a chore in the original and they had a nice solution in Apocalypse by just having it done in base but my point was that you did equip your squad with weapons, there was a limitation in the weapons you had either from purchasing or manufacturing constraints and ammo management was important especially for your heavy weapons people. It's also nice that you can have a rifle wielding soldier drop his rifle to pick up the rocket launcher of his fallen comrade to blow up that group of sectoids, don't think your going to get that in the new one where you can just keep shooting forever. The supressing fire was jarring for me in the demo, a few dozen plasma shots on a vehicle doesn't destroy it?

6) My issues with it are various but seeing as my main point is that this is a game calling itself an XCOM game while not really being an XCOM game then the usage of the title annoys me as well, not my sole issue but an annoyance nonetheless.

7) :S

8) My point is the special abilities, you have the various classes with their own special abilities which is very much like Mass Effect, the only class specific special abilities in the original was the Sectoid Commander mind controlling people. Mass Effect every class has unique special abilities, new XCOM every class has unique special abilities, Mass Effect the abilities have cooldown, new XCOM abilities have cooldown.

9) Ok I will admit my point seems slightly weird, what I'm saying is that the link this has to the original XCOM is more on artwork and story then actual gameplay, that you could stick Mass Effect or Halo on it instead and not have it being linked with XCOM.
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Virtz

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1389 on: August 23, 2012, 05:10:53 pm »

Unlike calling someone a fanboy, which is totally alright.

Ooo...kay...

Indeed I do, and as a fanboy I can gripe as much as I want of them using the name of the original, I griped about XCOM: Enforcer I can gripe about this.
I guess it ain't so much about calling someone a fanboy as much as using that as an argument.

And I think your fanboy isn't letting you admit that.
"You're something something, so your argument is invalid."

Spoiler: Wall of text (click to show/hide)
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timferius

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1390 on: August 23, 2012, 05:46:13 pm »

Ok, wow, lot's of walls. So, just as an experiment, glazing over this debate:
New XCOM and Final Fantasy Comparisons:
-4 Characters in party! CHECK
-Class based system. CHECK
- Pre-set Monsters, though random number/mix in encounters. CHECK
- Level up skills/new abilities. CHECK
- Upgrade equipment. CHECK
- Random encounters and story based Encounters. CHECK
- Saving the world. CHECK

Anyway, can we just agree that you can compare seperate parts of any game to draw similarities?
Also, that was fun.
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nenjin

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1391 on: August 23, 2012, 06:07:09 pm »

If you don't want people to have an opinion about what you admit is a possible flaw in your perspective, best not to mention it. If a kleptomaniac is railing against theft laws, I think it's reasonable to say being a kleptomaniac may interfere with being able to appreciate multiple perspectives on the issue when that seems to be the case.

Really, if there was a more diplomatic way to say it, please post such an example. Otherwise, something something I don't think you really have much room to get offended on his behalf. If he hadn't called himself a fanboy and said it might be a flaw in his perspective, I wouldn't have mentioned it.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
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Sharp

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1392 on: August 23, 2012, 06:23:28 pm »

If you don't want people to have an opinion about what you admit is a possible flaw in your perspective, best not to mention it. If a kleptomaniac is railing against theft laws, I think it's reasonable to say being a kleptomaniac may interfere with being able to appreciate multiple perspectives on the issue when that seems to be the case.

Really, if there was a more diplomatic way to say it, please post such an example. Otherwise, something something I don't think you really have much room to get offended on his behalf. If he hadn't called himself a fanboy and said it might be a flaw in his perspective, I wouldn't have mentioned it.

Yes I called myself a fanboy, my issue is that it has nothing to do with anything when I am saying Mass Effect and XCOM have similarities.

I would still like to know your definition of procedural generation btw.
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VerdantSF

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1393 on: August 23, 2012, 06:29:23 pm »

The original X-Com remains my favorite game of all time (Master of Magic is a close second).  I'm really looking forward to this sequel!

nenjin

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Re: XCOM: Enemy Unknown (New by Firaxis)
« Reply #1394 on: August 23, 2012, 06:34:45 pm »

If you don't want people to have an opinion about what you admit is a possible flaw in your perspective, best not to mention it. If a kleptomaniac is railing against theft laws, I think it's reasonable to say being a kleptomaniac may interfere with being able to appreciate multiple perspectives on the issue when that seems to be the case.

Really, if there was a more diplomatic way to say it, please post such an example. Otherwise, something something I don't think you really have much room to get offended on his behalf. If he hadn't called himself a fanboy and said it might be a flaw in his perspective, I wouldn't have mentioned it.

Yes I called myself a fanboy, my issue is that it has nothing to do with anything when I am saying Mass Effect and XCOM have similarities.

I would still like to know your definition of procedural generation btw.

Something that's more than an algorithm polling a list of options and rolling dice for how many of a thing to instantiate. Procedural generation, as a bullet point feature, is what DF does. Where things with many moving parts are formulated each time the game is created and objects reference each other to inform yet more procedural generation. X-Com's maps are procedurally generated to me (even though they're closer to random.) Enemies and enemy placement is not, particularly because there's little to no variance in the enemies themselves.

I'm sure that definition is unsatisfactory to you. Just about anything involving computer programming is procedural, one way or another. When it comes to content it's not a matter of definitions to me though, it's a matter of scope. And in that regard XCOM was not procedurally generated to me, for the most part.

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Yes I called myself a fanboy, my issue is that it has nothing to do with anything when I am saying Mass Effect and XCOM have similarities.

When the comparison being made is pejorative, I'd say that has something to do with your faithfulness to the original product. I read that as a dis against the newest game (because it's not a straight inflexible isometric perspective, and therefore isn't "XCOM.") Maybe you intend that just as a neutral statement of fact. I'd still disagree with it, but I'd be less tempted to post about it when it's neutral versus when it's coming from a "that's not MY game" place.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2012, 06:38:03 pm by nenjin »
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti
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