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Author Topic: Considering Races' Roles  (Read 16976 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #90 on: December 20, 2011, 12:32:03 pm »

Culture randomization would be a GODSEND in DF.

Would make picking you embark civ so much more colourful too :P

knutor

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #91 on: December 20, 2011, 12:41:56 pm »

Culture randomization would be a GODSEND in DF.

I disagree.  While I'd like a friendly orc, or troll during migrations, I wouldn't want anything but seven dwarfs at embark.  Made up randomly, just like its designed. 

I was refering to planning.  I wouldn't want to take a bunch of topside grazers, at launch, if I knew I were going to be facing mainly Goblins invasions in a sinister biome.  However, if alignments were skewered; I might shortchange myself.  The 7 dwarfs I started out with, might just fit into a sinister biome, and the goblins would trade with me.  And leave my grazers be, out of some demented logic...  Maybe they found the cheese curds pleasing.  I dunno.

Complete culture randomization of the races has the risk, inherent of awfulizing a world.  There has to be fixed profiles, in order for the deeper interactions to trigger correctly.  The AI's thoughts would not be able to form patterns, they would fail to discern friend from foe, if it were setup to randomize it all, there would be no way to determine a siege from an embassador visit.  The risks inherent to the mayor would increase 100 fold.

Sincerely,
Knutor

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Loud Whispers

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #92 on: December 20, 2011, 01:26:40 pm »

Of course the races would have to remain true to their own styles, so nothing too crazy like elves making mountain homes and humans protecting forests. What I'm suggesting is that each civ has their own art pref, minor deviations from their laws e.t.c. Which would make for more/less conflicts and more interesting interactions between fortress and civ.

knutor

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #93 on: December 21, 2011, 01:28:06 pm »

Of course the races would have to remain true to their own styles, so nothing too crazy like elves making mountain homes and humans protecting forests. What I'm suggesting is that each civ has their own art pref, minor deviations from their laws e.t.c. Which would make for more/less conflicts and more interesting interactions between fortress and civ.

I could rally behind that banner, if the changes were solely surface layer, and cosmetic.

When I was in the closet, hiding from myself the other day, I came to this conclusion.  If I try to improve myself, to be less a hermit and more a socialite.  I would not alter one preset thought in those around me, aside from their level of tolerance and view of beauty.  I actually must deviate from the norm, from what I see as myself, and not from what they see.  I am cursed to be, just as much at conflict with myself as I am with those around me, if I solely change my actions without also changing what makes me, me.  It's only when I reach down and make that change, on the cellular level, mutate or evolvate, do I actually increase or reduce the underlining view, others have on me.  I even tho I try, as hard a try as possible, do not and can not, change my own person.  I'm stuck with it. 

I see this as the same conflict, my fortress has with its reputation it has in this globe of fantasy beings.  There are just too many preset defaults, too many if-then statements, too many ways of immeasurable change on both, the dwarfs and their neighbors to consider.  Just the arms race alone, leads to unadaptable conflict.  For example, how is it we can make mechanisms, perform needle point surgery and not know the formula to make SPITBALLS for our looted straws, ie. blowguns.

Sincerely,
Knutor

edit: to -> too
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 01:33:39 pm by knutor »
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GreatWyrmGold

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #94 on: December 21, 2011, 08:55:15 pm »

But the ability to make tools with thumbs far outweigh speed gained from walking on all fours.

And no, the wheel is not useless without an engine.


...Have people forgotten how to walk all of a sudden? D:
And about wagons and carts? Which are still used as toys and in grocery stores? God Armok, what is civilization coming to?


removing them adds more chance for variety
Bipeds.  Remember that?  Is this what your asking for, a wider array of variation in biped lifeforms?  Or an interchangeable flag in the raws? 

Actually, I wasn't asking for anything. I was having a small chat about importance of humans in fantasy worlds.

Yes, yes.  But along the lines of monkeys.  As a race.  Humans are monkeys, afterall.  If we weren't, we wouldn't have two bones in our forearms, like our calves.  We are built to balance ourselves on tree limbs.  If we were meant to walk on the ground, we'd have one bone there.  Like other ground pounders.
All tetrapods have tibias and fibulas like humans, as well as radiuses and unlas. Sorry, carry on, zoology is a bit of a sticking point with me.

Quote
As far as humans in fantasy's go, isn't it just the way it is?  I mean without humans how would we differentiate elfs from anything else.  Yeah, they have pointy ears, but heck.. They'd be just the humans, replacements.  Until something more humanly arrived.  Its not so much a matter of humans being in the fantasy, as the human ideal, the human feel, and the human impression.

Combat calculations would stink if we didn't have humans, and human-like weapons. 
So you say we need humans as an "average?" Makes sense, except that currently humans are the largest of all civilized races.


Of course the races would have to remain true to their own styles, so nothing too crazy like elves making mountain homes and humans protecting forests. What I'm suggesting is that each civ has their own art pref, minor deviations from their laws e.t.c. Which would make for more/less conflicts and more interesting interactions between fortress and civ.
My two cents: Races should have a starting point, defined in the raws and perhaps with some starting variations predefined. All elves start out hippies, all dwarves start out with metalsmithing, all goblins start out evil, all kobolds start out mute, all humans start out...humaney, although the elves might be culturally carnivorous, the dwarves might focus more on traps than on armies, the goblins might follow tundra spirits or something rather than demons, kobolds might sometimes have organization in their governments, and humans might...um...I'm not sure. Then history would shape them. If a civilization of elves protected a fortress of goblins from human attacks, the goblins might join the civ and spread their ideas throughout it, or the elves might show the goblins the grandeurs of the forest retreats, leading to goblin traders bringing pig tail cloth, blood thorn armor, and tame giant bats. Dwarves and humans might trade steel for large human weapons, only to unite against a goblin civ that's terrorizing the trade routes, who then forge a treaty with subterranean animalpeople to raid dwarves' settlements, and causing later goblin armies to include animalmen squads. If unusually humble and kind kobolds came to dwarvish settlements begging for food, and the dwarves agreed for whatever reason, the possibilities multiply to include kobold underclasses, secret raids on nearby settlements occupying prime land, and multi-race forts. Dwarves who value human, um, values might decide plains and savannas sound nice and therefore spread there, engulfing the original human lands and leading to dwarves with access to longland grass, elephants, and pikes. Et cetera. Please excuse the wall of text and the tv tropes links.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #95 on: December 22, 2011, 08:07:49 am »

radiuses and unlas

Typo's galore!

Radii, as radius stems from the latin directly... And that's a !!FUN!! way to spell Ulna's :P

Sorry, grammar is a sticking point with me D:

What about biome related civs?

Evil biome - > Evil civ
Savage Desert biome - > An army of legendary bowmen riding atop legendary bowmen giant scorpions?

knutor

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #96 on: December 22, 2011, 04:07:13 pm »

Quote
So you say we need humans as an "average?" Makes sense, except that currently humans are the largest of all civilized races.

That true, Wyrmie?  Largest, you say.  In your world, there, or all the time?  After we generate DF, we pick an embark location, that if we tab, prior to hitting e for embark can see the likelihood of our neighbors.  In some regions, humans don't even show up.  And in others, its Dwarf, Human, Elf, Goblin, as opposed to Dwarf, Goblin, Elf.  Or just Dwarf, Goblin.  It all depends on your starting conditions, location.  It always has Dwarf in the mix I noticed, otherwise I doubt Toady's story, plot points would develop, as our fortress advanced.

I never meant to imply we need humans to be an average race, with average roles.  That's how Dungeon and Dragons portrays them, I just meant to say, we need humans, if we don't have them, another race will fill their role, in many cases the average role.  Many gamers tend to min max, or leverage themselves to take advantage of the most powerful strategy.  If that is average, then I guess thats what would be enjoyable to the most people.  However, flexibility seems to be the greatest evolutionary strategy for success.  That and jaw size and crunch.

I really liked how Asheron's Call divided up the races of man.  A Black-type, White-type, and an Yellow-type.  Beats me about what they called them. They had bonuses unique to there type, but not so grand that it lopsided one.  With Black being magical, White being ranged, and Yellow being melee.  It worked, I guess.  Isn't AC1 still running.  Tho I think they just run it now, to be able to say, the claim the 'longest' MMO.  Its graphics looks horrible, by comparisons. 

Sincerely,
Knutor
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knutor

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #97 on: December 22, 2011, 09:59:49 pm »

Wyrmie, Oh!  Duh!  A homer moment for Knutor.  Largest as in size, haha, I thought you meant largest as in, population.  I'm so, sorry.  Sincerely, Knutor

Ps. sorry for double post
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Babylon

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #98 on: December 26, 2011, 06:34:38 am »

I'm well aware of that. But if you were to change those animal characters into humans, it would seem incredibly out of place, even if it followed the same theme/storyline. Much like turning Beowulf into a monkey.

The Lion King is, essentially, Hamlet, as told with lions.
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Babylon

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #99 on: December 26, 2011, 06:37:14 am »

I think how each race exports terror could also be affected by morals.

Ah the Elves appear to be eating all of the corpses...

And here come the ghosts.

This would, IMO, be genius.

Mess with the elves and get ghosts. 
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Babylon

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #100 on: December 26, 2011, 06:46:20 am »

Which biomes a race can tolerate would strongly influence their ethics if the system I am seeing suggested were implemented.

Dwarves in a wooded biome would turn the woods into charcoal. Humans might get elfy instead.  They wouldn't get super elfy though, one of the most effective strategies in a forest is to use it to fuel the fires of your industry.

Humans in a very inhospitable biome might start eating the enemy dead though.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #101 on: December 26, 2011, 08:28:24 am »

Which biomes a race can tolerate would strongly influence their ethics if the system I am seeing suggested were implemented.

Dwarves in a wooded biome would turn the woods into charcoal. Humans might get elfy instead.  They wouldn't get super elfy though, one of the most effective strategies in a forest is to use it to fuel the fires of your industry.

Humans in a very inhospitable biome might start eating the enemy dead though.

Have you seen humans in forest biomes? They cut down ALL of the trees. Also, that seems like a major culture change, and that would probably give a lot of people big headaches :P

peskyninja

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #102 on: December 26, 2011, 02:20:36 pm »

radiuses and unlas

Typo's galore!

Radii, as radius stems from the latin directly... And that's a !!FUN!! way to spell Ulna's :P

Sorry, grammar is a sticking point with me D:

What about biome related civs?

Evil biome - > Evil civ
Savage Desert biome - > An army of legendary bowmen riding atop legendary bowmen giant scorpions?
Maybe some civs are in some kind of exile or something similar caused by another civ.
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knutor

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #103 on: December 28, 2011, 05:50:05 pm »

What about biome related civs?
exile .. caused by another civ.
I'd rather not stereotype a civ, based on a preset alignment or behavior as a result of where it started at.  Its bad enough we have these biome specific titans in DF, I'd hate to have biome specific races mirroring them.  I prefer them to follow the complex survival code and outlook to the T, and see where that takes them.  Using whatever is at hand, to improve themselves.  If cannibalistic tendencies evolve, then so be it, that shouldn't be what makes them evil. 

I'd prefer the alignment and behavior towards my civ, be a direct calculation off both civ's leader's attributes, to be swayed heavily by what my diplomat, past events, and intrigue generate.  If my leader is 23 Honest and theirs is 24, then while we are both liars and dishonest and in many eyes evil, there's would be more goodly motives coming from the 24 than the 23, by a deception value of -1, aslong as all other factors remain the same.  Same with possible spy interactions.  Exiled and/or lost civs, sound great to me.  I'd love to get news about upstarts and/or unacclimatized civilizations establishing a new foothold somewhere.  Maybe lose some, and gain some.  Yeah!

Sincerely,
Knutor
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knutor

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Re: Considering Races' Roles
« Reply #104 on: December 30, 2011, 09:43:04 am »

I guess the reason I'd want it to be so dependent on the leader, is at some point, I'd hope, I could send cloak and dagger operatives over and remove their OP leader, should she have too many high statistic attributes and not enough royal guards. 
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"I don't often drink Mead, but when I do... I prefer Dee Eef's.  -The most interesting Dwarf in the World.  Stay thirsty, my friend.
Shark Dentistry, looking in the Raws.
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