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[Loud Whispers]

I think how each race exports terror could also be affected by morals.

Ah the Elves appear to be eating all of the corpses...

And here come the ghosts.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Dude Poe's law.
Keep in mind it was a reply to a post. Prolly should've quoted it in hindsight

I understand that, I really do, but subtleties of the language (Poe's Law, sarcasm in general, and myriad meanings that would be clear if we were all face-to-face),  are very difficult to convey through the written word, particularly on the internet. The English language (and I don't mean this to be patronizing, so please don't take it that way) is really designed as a vocal language, and one that incorporates body language. And, despite English having a deep literary tradition, the Internet has gone a long way towards murdering the finer points of the language, which--atleast in part--exist to help convey different/deeper levels of meaning.

So I'm forced to reply to what is there, as in, the plain text, which inevitably involves some guesswork.

In any case, I'm not advocating that humans be removed from the vanilla game. I think their presence is a reasonable comfort to new walk-in players, and their donations. I just don't find them to be all that interesting or useful in a complex, richly populated fantasy world, where infinite choice exists through modding.

If people can come up with valid ways and reasons to make them more intriguing, and to really stand out, as humans, in a world already populated by leechmen, dark gnomes, troglodytes, et all, keeping in mind that those species already suffer from a certain amount of "humans with funny hats/alien foreheads" genericism, partly due to the game still not being finished in general, and magic not being implemented yet), and at the same time, solve the "humanity first" issues that I dislike about much of fantasy (I feel that, in many cases of mediochre fantasy works, it opens a door to unfortunate imperialistic and racist implications--Tolkien's work, for instance, would be an exception, in my opinion anyway), then by all means I really would love to hear about it and discuss it.

[GreatWyrmGold]

What about the race of night creatures and demons?  Nobody has mentioned them, do you all disable them in your worlds?  I'd love to know how they come by their powerful items and skills.  Often I've wondered if there is some hidden danger room leveling up these hellions.

Night creatures are rare and demons either lead civs of other races, with little change except to make humans more warlike, or else stay sealed away until one wrong blow with a pick...

I can't think of too many basic stories that couldn't be told from another species' point of view, provided the species in question is fairly close to humans, mentally, and fleshed out enough.

But the same could easily be said about stories of any other race as well, meaning that the subject of race may actually become completely trivial.

Isn't that his point?

However, let's be totally honest here, monkey Beowulf could hardly be taken as anything other than a comedy, and wouldn't have nearly the same vibe as the original human version. If we turned Bugs Bunny or Scooby Doo into humans, they might still play the same roll in their stories, but it would't be the same thing.
You could go around changing characters from all sorts of stories into different species, but it would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to keep the same feeling that the original had intact.

Only to humans. To monkeys? An epic myth. Which was actually his point.

[Loud Whispers]

So everyone is laughing at each other. Lovely.

[King DZA]

What about the race of night creatures and demons?  Nobody has mentioned them, do you all disable them in your worlds?  I'd love to know how they come by their powerful items and skills.  Often I've wondered if there is some hidden danger room leveling up these hellions.

Night creatures are rare and demons either lead civs of other races, with little change except to make humans more warlike, or else stay sealed away until one wrong blow with a pick...

I can't think of too many basic stories that couldn't be told from another species' point of view, provided the species in question is fairly close to humans, mentally, and fleshed out enough.

But the same could easily be said about stories of any other race as well, meaning that the subject of race may actually become completely trivial.

Isn't that his point?

However, let's be totally honest here, monkey Beowulf could hardly be taken as anything other than a comedy, and wouldn't have nearly the same vibe as the original human version. If we turned Bugs Bunny or Scooby Doo into humans, they might still play the same roll in their stories, but it would't be the same thing.
You could go around changing characters from all sorts of stories into different species, but it would be incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to keep the same feeling that the original had intact.

Only to humans. To monkeys? An epic myth. Which was actually his point.

Really? I must have mistaken his point for "humans don't add much to the game, and removing them adds more chance for variety".

[knutor]

removing them adds more chance for variety

Ever play Star Control?   I think it was called?  I have it in DOSBOX, don't play it much.  There was a very fragile plant lifeform.  It walked on two legs and was the perfect fit for a medical officer.  But a stiff cross wind on an unknown planet would kill it.  That's neither here nor there.  But what the game did have was a clarification for lifeforms based on their travel form, DF doesn't.  Bipeds.  Remember that?  Is this what your asking for, a wider array of variation in biped lifeforms?  Or an interchangeable flag in the raws? 

After all, we all had ancestors who knuckle dragged on all fours.  Its how we'll get around someday soon, once the big wigs sell off all the earth's natural resources.  The wheel is only good, if its got an engine.  Four legs is slightly more powerful than two.

Sincerely,
Knutor

[Loud Whispers]

But the ability to make tools with thumbs far outweigh speed gained from walking on all fours.

And no, the wheel is not useless without an engine.


...Have people forgotten how to walk all of a sudden? D:

[King DZA]

removing them adds more chance for variety

Ever play Star Control?   I think it was called?  I have it in DOSBOX, don't play it much.  There was a very fragile plant lifeform.  It walked on two legs and was the perfect fit for a medical officer.  But a stiff cross wind on an unknown planet would kill it.  That's neither here nor there.  But what the game did have was a clarification for lifeforms based on their travel form, DF doesn't.  Bipeds.  Remember that?  Is this what your asking for, a wider array of variation in biped lifeforms?  Or an interchangeable flag in the raws? 

After all, we all had ancestors who knuckle dragged on all fours.  Its how we'll get around someday soon, once the big wigs sell off all the earth's natural resources.  The wheel is only good, if its got an engine.  Four legs is slightly more powerful than two.

Sincerely,
Knutor

Actually, I wasn't asking for anything. I was having a small chat about importance of humans in fantasy worlds.

[Loud Whispers]

AND WE HAVE DECIDED THEY ARE IMPORTANT.

THE END.

[knutor]

removing them adds more chance for variety

Bipeds.  Remember that?  Is this what your asking for, a wider array of variation in biped lifeforms?  Or an interchangeable flag in the raws? 

Actually, I wasn't asking for anything. I was having a small chat about importance of humans in fantasy worlds.

Yes, yes.  But along the lines of monkeys.  As a race.  Humans are monkeys, afterall.  If we weren't, we wouldn't have two bones in our forearms, like our calves.  We are built to balance ourselves on tree limbs.  If we were meant to walk on the ground, we'd have one bone there.  Like other ground pounders. 

As far as humans in fantasy's go, isn't it just the way it is?  I mean without humans how would we differentiate elfs from anything else.  Yeah, they have pointy ears, but heck.. They'd be just the humans, replacements.  Until something more humanly arrived.  Its not so much a matter of humans being in the fantasy, as the human ideal, the human feel, and the human impression.

Combat calculations would stink if we didn't have humans, and human-like weapons. 

That being said.  The next nearest thing would take on the human-like attributes.  In Conan's world, barbarian northmen de-evolved back into primates, and then re-evolved back into humans.  The reason for there incredible strength and speed.  At least thats what Roberts was hoping to get across. 

They never talk about evolution in the movies or games, if they did, the game/movie would lose sales to the conservative bible thumpers condemning it as a sinful past time.  Which would stink for all parties.

Sincerely,
Knutor

[knutor]

I could enjoy half-species.  Ya, know half-elves. 

I've always wanted to have a half-orc monks in my fortress, or tame trolls to enslave, with restraints, there, by the entrance, to open my huge gates, like Sauron in Middle-Earth.

Sincerely,
Knutor 

[Loud Whispers]

I think the Elves being immortal immediately distinguishes themselves from Humans.

[knutor]

I think the Elves being immortal immediately distinguishes themselves from Humans.

I would agree, indubitably. 

If it were not for this insane dwarf blacksmith with murder in his past, murder in his present, murder in his veins.

I would have no inclination to believe that an elf might pose as a human, if they were not upright, and verbal. 

However, there are elf corpses in the corpse pile, dismiss them with a single hand wave, or toss them somewhere unseen, should I?  I do in fact, and in hindsight, see dead elfs, like dead humans.  Dead elfs, dead elfs, dead elfs. 

I like the thought that they live forever, however, there is no proof that Humans do infact die a permanent death.  A DF human's demise may be a phase change, like that of a Caterpillar to the Butterfly.  An anthropomorphic shift.  The proof is in the pudding, I suppose & that is some blackish pudding. 

Now get told, I will. Perform shark dentistry henceforth, by the murmur, by the whisper, by the echo, it only stands to object. 

So hark-en to me, thee white coated wizard, with prickly abundance!  For I know not what I use, or how its applied, but it is there, to read, but for my eyes, I cannot, I will not.  Read aloud, I may push life in, read in quiet, I may pull life out.  Shunned from existence, the thoughts, the words, the dark phantoms dance.  Death to end the elf, or to restart oneself. 

The probes of my master, buzz and whirl.  Leave a wee-wee crumb for the future, to twist and turn its fateful approach, he does.  A little doubt, often leads to a greater truth.

Sincerely,
Knutor

[Loud Whispers]

So we find an insane blacksmith Dwarf, dwarfslaughter stained in his past.

But is this all he does? Do we notice families wandering together?

Or is it that when we enter a fortress, we see naught but pawns for our adventures, and see everything purely for their most useful traits.

A blacksmith, and a murderer.

If being bipedal classes as a human, then surely a monkey Beowulf would not seem so comedic?

If that monkey had anthropomorphic traits, could speak, socialise and refuge in its community, it would be shockingly human.

How do you see dead humans? Like dead Elfs? Does that mean you value both for their importance?

And there is no proof for life beyond death, or changes or even existence. So we do with what we can sense, what we can do. A DF human's demise could be a metamorphosis on a larger scale, but until the great Toady one decides so, it will remain that a dead Human, stays a dead Human... Or becomes undead.

[knutor]

I see dead elves in the corpse pile in this fortress here, 1031yr. 

Odd place for something immortal.  But I can see where their undying ability might be uniquely different than a humans limited lifespan.  However, any villain will tell us, death is but a dagger fall away, always.

Some legends give dwarfs the undying ability.  Just read about them over on monsterpedia.  They also have invisibility and the ability to pass walls.  And I don't mean poop walls on the toilet.

I hope, DF keeps some degree of racial profiling.  As a source of comfort, something to trust and count on, while picking embark possibilities.  If DF were to randomize the behaviors of races, the game and interactions between what would or could have been a villain, might change, thereby leading to a final outcome much, much faster than it may be planned to end.  Or designed to end.  After all, it is a game. 

Launching it, and losing in 5min, isn't very sporting.  So I see an importance in having both.  Not because an anthropogenic world has more richness and robustness, but because another race, of nearly the same makeup, would simply step up to bat, and hit one out of the ballpark, like a human.

Sincerely,
Knutor