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Author Topic: Noob guide requested  (Read 31235 times)

Loud Whispers

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Re: Noob guide requested
« Reply #195 on: November 26, 2011, 12:08:49 pm »

What do the Individual Eq and Squad Eq options mean when you're setting a barracks? The wiki page doesn't say.

"A barracks can be defined as a place to train, sleep, store squad equipment, store individual equipment or any combination of the above".

It gives your soldiers the permission to store their equipment in the barracks if you have any suitable containers there.

Aha, thanks. Doesn't seem like it would be useful to me since I always leave them equipped anyway.

That info really belongs on the barracks page.

Really only useful if you want quick re-deployment and un-assignment of dwarves that aren't full time head smashers :D

murlocdummy

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Re: Noob guide requested
« Reply #196 on: November 26, 2011, 05:56:28 pm »

Anyway, that brings me to a reitteration of my second problem.  I still don't know what setting causes my units to still wear their armor outside of duty.

This has been a real pain for me recently. The setting you're looking for is in the military screen (m) under schedules (s). I think it's set to Inactive = Uniformed by default, but they don't seem to wear the stuff until they've been given an order first.

I've had some guys training for a while, and it was only when I ordered them to station by the entrance that they went to grab some armour. Worse, I changed their orders to attack before some arrived. When the goblins were dead and I cancelled their orders, some of them dropped pieces of armour on the ground before returning to work. I assume they were going to put them on when they arrived at their station, but I've no idea.

That reminds me. There are a couple of things I've been meaning to ask, and I might as well ask them in this thread.

What do the Individual Eq and Squad Eq options mean when you're setting a barracks? The wiki page doesn't say.

Also, if a zoo overlaps a jail, can dwarves be locked in the animal cages or do they count as unavailable?

I see...so the setting that causes dwarves to wear their armor outside of duty is actually kind of unreliable.  I also was not aware that I had to give an order in order to actively make my dwarves don their equipment.  I was under the impression that you had to give them time in order to get around to eventually putting their equipment on, or else giving them an order would cause them to suicidally run straight into combat with little more than a left gauntlet and their beards to throw at the enemy.

As for the zoo overlapping the jail, I haven't a clue.  I'm not even at that point in the game where I can actually devote time and effort to making a zoo.  I wasn't aware that you could designate a place as a zoo.  I assume that whatever equipment is sitting in the range of a particular designated room will be used by that room, regardless if that stuff was in another room beforehand.

I just found out that you can't have your dwarves change equipment in the middle of battle.  My crossbowmen chased around a moose man around my base for the better part of a month, refusing to pick up crossbows and ammo.  I'm cancelling the kill order until they find the time to pick up their weapons, then have them return to cleaning up the creature.

Also, is there any way to order your animals to attack an enemy?  A badger woman went around ravaging about 10 of my war dogs, and they just stood around, taking it.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 07:36:03 pm by murlocdummy »
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murlocdummy

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Re: Noob guide requested
« Reply #197 on: November 27, 2011, 09:30:23 pm »

Well, I've been playing Dwarf Fortress for about two weeks now, and I have to honestly say that it has been at least somewhat entertaining.

The game has so far become more trouble than it's worth, and is now no longer entertaining to me.



Here is my final analysis of the game thus far:  current version 0.3.25 alpha, game in development for 9 years.  This is my comprehensive review of the game.  Essentially, a message to all individuals currently uninitiated in Dwarf Fortress.


==================================

You know that feeling of dread and frustration when you play an RPG, and you realize that in order to progress the game, you need to grind through a horde of enemies that are neither fun to battle nor give you any appreciable reward for defeating them?  Well, take that aspect of gaming hell and combine it with the controller for the Jaguar gaming system, and you'll result in the gaming experience you'll get from Dwarf Fortress.

When I heard that the game was still an alpha, I expected something that had been in development this long to be something like Notch's Minecraft or George Moromisato's Transcendence.  Going into the game, I expected the graphics to be ASCII and the controls to be a little bit bothersome, but otherwise playable.  What I found was that there was a game that was built by the developer, and seemed to be completely and utterly forgotten.  The control scheme is totally and completely convoluted, with each and every menu in the game requiring a distinct set of navigational and scrolling controls.  Up, left, PgUp, *, +, and many other keys are required in order to traverse them, and most of the controls aren't consistent between menus.  Sometimes when you expect that you should be using the directional keys, you find that you're supposed to be using the + or - keys, or when you want to scroll a page you find that the game requires you to use PgUp or PgDn.  Of course, this issue is remedied by the fact that there are tooltips at the bottom of each and every menu to ensure that you'll have to glue your eyes to the bottom of each and every screen you encounter to try and determine which of the many keys on your keyboard you'll need in order to scroll through the menu to find what you're looking for or select whatever it is you're trying to use.  Of course, some of the common menus, such as Construction have keyboard shortcuts that you can use, many of them do not.

Some of the most significant problems arise when you want to look for a particular item that you've had your dwarves produce or a particular animal that was just born from your herds.  The game lists your stockpiled goods in an easy-to use format that categorizes everything in terms of total amounts of goods in your stockpiles, regardless of where it is.  Early in the game, you are able to assign a particular dwarf to the task of bookkeeper, whose sole purpose in life is to go around and simply count every single item in your fortress and write it down in your Stocks menu in your Status screen.  He does not record where any of the items are, if they're being used, or anything about them.  Makes you wonder how he can avoid making mistakes if he doesn't bother to make note of anything other than the massive list of tally marks that he carries around with him.  His indiscretion in not providing you with much information about your stockpiles doesn't stop there.  The lists of animals and dwarves in your fortress aren't ordered in a logical manner, either.  The animals are ordered simply by which animals arrived first, and that's the only way that they're ordered.  The list of dwarves in the Unit listing is based off of what they state their profession to be, regardless if that's what they actually do.  As much as your top miner may like being called a potash maker, he's not fooling anyone.  Managing a list of things that aren't ordered in any logical manner may not be an issue at the beginning of the game, but as you progress, your herds will grow, your population will increase, and your stockpiles of food, trinkets, and armor will expand with them.  Whenever you select an individual for a position such as broker, manager, bookkeeper, etc., you encounter a menu that has you select the particular dwarf you want to use for that position.  Again, the list isn't ordered in any manner that would seem either natural or intuitive.  It takes some research to figure out that the list is actually ordered by what the game thinks are the best choices for that position.  It would have been a hell of alot easier to just order it alphabetically, but instead, the GAME will decide what's right for you.  Needless to say, there is a LOT of list diving in this game.

After trudging through the game's controls, you'll probably find that there's actually a game there that you can play.  The game itself involves Settlers-like gameplay with you controlling and giving indirect orders to a series of dwarves.  Investigating them closely, you'll find that each one has an established personality and even experience points allocated to a series of skills that they can use.  By using their skills and performing the various tasks they're ordered to do, they'll gain XP and eventually level up in the skill, allowing them to perform the task more effectively.  Each dwarf will even have relationships with other dwarves, which can be checked on their relationships screen.    A whole myriad of other aspects regarding the dwarves' complexities are available including things like their hygiene, unrequited loves, happiness, personal preferences for jobs and activities.

The entire game world itself is also well done, with dozens of different kinds of stones, metals, and other procedurally generated resources available that make up the particular map that your dwarves settle on.  Don't think that the game revolves only around your little settlement, however.  The world outside of your particular sliver of land is also procedurally generated, and generated in extremely great detail, which each and every part of the world having its own resources and layout.  There are even whole cities and the histories of their entire civilizations that are generated by the game.  Despite this level of excessive detail, however, the game still has its obvious flaws that can't be covered up by totally useless bells and whistles.

The gameplay focuses mainly on your fortress, where you'll be trying very hard to do simple things like getting your dwarves to construct the things you tell them to, or to pick up a particular item off the ground.  The game doesn't allow you to give dwarves specific orders, forcing you to work around each individual dwarf's personality and idiosyncrasies in order to coax them into doing whatever you want them to do.  And even then, they probably still won't do what you want them to do.  Things like picking up their discarded belongings off the floor or taking their wounded to your fortress' hospital are things that simply don't get done.  Your dwarves prefer to sit idly by and be lazy rather than do some of the simplest of tasks.  There are workarounds to this, of course, but the longer you play, the more you'll have to rely on workarounds just to keep your fort functioning properly.  Things such as reallocating resource stockpile locations in order to feed prisoners, designating roof-based ponds in order to water fields, and selective deconstruction of beehive farms in order to acquire the goods they produce are things that you'll need to use in order to keep your fort running smoothly.  If this all sounds very complicated and overwhelming, you're not alone.  Most people who play this game concede that it is, in fact, extremely complicated and difficult to understand.

Overall, I'd give this game a 7/10.  The core game is done quite well, with your various Dwarven settlers doing much of what they're supposed to, and the procedurally generated backstory and world history are extremely well done.  The main problem is that the core game feels like it was an easter egg.  A thing that was intentionally hidden behind a nearly impassable wall of impossibly difficult to learn controls and a menu system that forces you to pull out a word processor and redo the entire thing just so that you can use it.  The game is simply alot of work in order to play, and despite its originality and the various nuances of the experience, it's probably not worth the effort.
==================================



And now a message to the established players:

**********************************

You know what comes to mind when I think of Toady?  I think that he's actually in fey mood.  Unfortunately, unlike Urist McDwarf, Toady is highly unlikely to take up residence in a workshop and come out a few years later with a polished, awesome piece of artwork.  He's been tinkering away at this game for years now, and he's still working out the particulars of various gameplay elements like vampires or participation in wars between nations.  He's stated that he doesn't want the game to be too focused on micromanaging, but with the way he's completely failed to set up a proper way for the player to access various parts of the game, I'm not seeing any other alternative to extreme micromanaging and doing actual office work in order to just make the damn thing work right.

I know I've said that the interface looks like a mess, but upon closer investigation, it looks more like Toady touched lightly on a few concepts here and there in regards to interface programming, such as Search and list ordering parameters, and then simply gave up on it shortly before making it actually usable to the player.  He's gone out and developed the core of a game, and then went around making a sort of bonus game with the adventure mode.  He's gone and attached alot of bells and whistles to the game before making the game presentable in any way, shape, or form.  I don't mind that the game doesn't have modern graphics or that the controls are extremely hard to figure out.  My main issue is that after you've figured everything out, you should be able to play the game the way it was meant to be played, and that just isn't the case with this game.  The game that Toady has in mind just isn't there yet, and he hasn't bothered to give players a real game to play.  Not only that, the game so far doesn't look or feel like anything that seems like it was ever meant to see the light of day, much less be played by hundreds of thousands of users.  It feels more like Toady tried to make the game as a supplement to a tabletop D&D game, and never let go of that idea.

Toady noted that he would probably want more donations for the game, but with the way things are going, he's still going to lose alot of players to the game's inherent and blatantly obvious gameplay flaws.  The game may be based on the old roguelikes like Nethack, but the only players that are actually sticking around to enjoy the game are the old-fogey die-hards.  The gamers that knew a good game when they saw one, and saw a good game in Dwarf Fortress.  The only problem is that there's a difference between what you see and what you actually get.  In the end, it was not worth the effort.  The game just wasn't good enough to warrant the pain and suffering I had to go through to get to it, and is definitely not worth the pain and suffering to continue playing it.
**********************************
« Last Edit: December 06, 2011, 01:14:51 pm by murlocdummy »
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Ledi

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Re: Noob guide requested
« Reply #198 on: November 28, 2011, 07:15:36 am »

The game may be based on the old roguelikes like Nethack, but the only players that are actually sticking around to enjoy the game are the old-fogey die-hards.

Well, thank you for insulting the entire forum that you decided to post this in. I'm sure we all appreciate it.

Before stumbling onto DF, I'd never even touched a roguelike. I knew vaguely of nethack's existance, but that was about it. Which is interesting, now I come to think of it. Growing up with the C64 and Amiga 500, I would have thought I'd've played more text based games than I actually have.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 07:22:26 am by Ledi »
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So Ledi's been training the cats into an army of disposable warbeasts?  Why did no-one think of this sooner?!
Hellcannon seemed to be constantly on the verge of death and Levergedon before my turn helped, but ultimately what killed it was Ledi's cat army.

Starver

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Re: Noob guide requested
« Reply #199 on: November 28, 2011, 07:23:27 am »

I must admit I admire you for your sticking power, if you've had such a difficult time being able to work out the whole adhesion issue in the first place.  I do have problems with some of your points, in particular, but don't think it's worth treading over those bits of ground if you're, likely as not, not going to find what I say to be of any use (e.g., I don't think you broached this, previously, but the <Tab> key would have been your friend with one of the issues you appear to have brought to our attention...  and the Bookkeeper is actually insanely powerful given that his efforts on your behalf last beyond his own term of office, and even lifetime!).  edit: Ledi voices another point I wasn't going to mention, but I must agree with it now it has been explicitly voiced.  There may be many old fans around, but there are significant numbers of more recent ones.  Disappearance rates are hard to enumerate, of course, as are the number of lurkers/wiki-readers/etc of either vintage.

As one acquainted with MC, Transcendence, and various other games that I'm sure you'd also consider equivalent I know this is a different animal, but the development regimes are different, the plans and the visions are different.  (I don't think you could compare MC with Trans any more closely than either with DF, to be honest, although it's been a good year since I last dabbled with Trans, so maybe my memory is playing up.)

So, acknowledging that we all have our own interpretation of the foibles and features of DF, I wish you well.  As a kindred spirit in the art of wall-to-wall text (although I'm keeping this reply deliberately short) I cannot complain too much at your expressive nature that might have appeared abrasive but was merely being thorough.  Very thorough, for I'm sure that in my first two weeks of actual playing (as opposed to generating worlds and wondering what to do then) were far less full of discovery than yours have been.  Granted, it took a while to come to the forums and there were a few less features to worry about, at the time, but I think you have grasped the bull by the horns.  And decided that being a stocksman is not for you.  Never mind, you tried it at least.

Oh, and you've donated, which is more than some of us have. <guilty-look, offset only marginally by pained expression of currently tighter-than-desirable finances>
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proxn_punkd

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Re: Noob guide requested
« Reply #200 on: November 28, 2011, 02:28:15 pm »

Dissing the people who are trying to help you is not conducive to getting help playing the game. Dissing the game is not conducive to getting help playing the game.

Are you here to play the game, or are you here to piss and moan?
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Sappho

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Re: Noob guide requested
« Reply #201 on: November 28, 2011, 02:57:20 pm »

He's here to say the game is terrible (or that it *could* be good if only it wasn't wrapped in stinky old garbage), the designer has betrayed the gaming world and all the people who blindly donated to him without testing to see if they like the game first, and the community is full of weirdos and idiots who apparently don't know how to judge whether a game is good or not, given that they are interested in more than a pretty interface, and therefore he is going to leave after giving a detailed list of reasons why the above things are true, and I suppose we are expected to say "Oh no, please, don't go! Please, stay and tell us how foolish we all are and tell Toady how to make his game better! What will we ever do without a beacon like you to light our way? Thank you so much for opening our eyes to how terrible DF is! Why, if it weren't for you ripping the game to pieces, we might have gone ahead and had FUN with it!"

Don't let the atom smasher hit you in the ass on the way out.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Noob guide requested
« Reply #202 on: November 28, 2011, 04:02:16 pm »

Well this thread has gone horribly civil war.

And murloc, that seems to just be your  8) opionis. I have never had your problem, and I'm sure no one else has at bay12. The horrific "grinding" found in DF is the baseline, you can do almost anything you can think of to change things. Do you think skyrim, DF or minecraft would be anywhere if all its players did were grind uselessly? NO! They control their own destiny... And DF allows you to have TOTAL control. And users have turned it into the most !INSANE! and !FUN! thing known to internets kind.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 04:06:36 pm by Loud Whispers »
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Newbunkle

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Re: Noob guide requested
« Reply #203 on: November 28, 2011, 05:16:26 pm »

You make a lot of fair comments. I agree with most of it, but I still find it fun to play despite its shortcomings. There are times when I need a break - when the enjoyment wears off and I find the negatives too annoying - but I always come back. I'm too excited about the next version to leave now. The 3D designations alone will be a huge improvement.
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YetAnotherStupidDorf

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Re: Noob guide requested
« Reply #204 on: November 28, 2011, 05:20:11 pm »

It is hilarious to watch how some people react when someone even dare say something slighty bad about their Holy Game.

Is this 7/10 actual score, or usual review inflated crap and you meant something like 3/10? If first, it is actually very good score!
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Dwarf Fortress - where the primary reason to prevent death of your citizens is that it makes them more annoying then they were in life.

Loud Whispers

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Re: Noob guide requested
« Reply #205 on: November 28, 2011, 05:22:40 pm »

It is hilarious to watch how some people react when someone even dare say something slighty bad about their Holy Game.

Is this 7/10 actual score, or usual review inflated crap and you meant something like 3/10? If first, it is actually very good score!

If you say anything remotely negative I will find you and BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH THE GAME!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ledi

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Re: Noob guide requested
« Reply #206 on: November 28, 2011, 10:42:16 pm »

It is hilarious to watch how some people react when someone even dare say something slighty bad about their Holy Game.

Actually, some of the points he brought up are fair, and I have nothing against those. It was the blanket insult to the players of DF and the community in general that raised my hackles, as well as the general tone used.
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So Ledi's been training the cats into an army of disposable warbeasts?  Why did no-one think of this sooner?!
Hellcannon seemed to be constantly on the verge of death and Levergedon before my turn helped, but ultimately what killed it was Ledi's cat army.

Sappho

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Re: Noob guide requested
« Reply #207 on: November 29, 2011, 01:22:34 am »

Actually, some of the points he brought up are fair, and I have nothing against those. It was the blanket insult to the players of DF and the community in general that raised my hackles, as well as the general tone used.

This. I have no problem with looking at the flaws in the game, and there are plenty to be found. It's the way it was all said that I'm upset about, and the overall sense of entitlement and arrogance. He didn't say "these are my opinions," he said "this game is unplayable, the developer is an idiot, and all the players are lunatics or fools for not realizing it."

It is interesting that he says 7/10 when he starts his review off with "take that aspect of gaming hell and combine it with the controller for the Jaguar gaming system, and you'll result in the gaming experience you'll get from Dwarf Fortress."

Starver

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Re: Noob guide requested
« Reply #208 on: November 29, 2011, 07:39:11 am »

If you say anything remotely negative I will find you and BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH THE GAME!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

;)
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Starver

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Re: Noob guide requested
« Reply #209 on: November 29, 2011, 08:48:17 am »

Anyway, I'll also repeat what I said in my first reply to his missive...  He's given it a good go, for a mere two weeks'-worth of playing.  I may not agree with his judgements, but I'd hesitate to call them "snap judgements", given just how much (as evidenced by the questions asked, and apparent problems encountered) of the game was encountered.  He even used the memetic analogy of "Toady must have had a fey mood"!  I was impressed by that statement.  At the same time, we know that there's a) more, and b) aspects he must have skimmed over.  (Never mind c) he perhaps did not absorb all of our proffered advice and experience, because there's an awful lot of that and I learnt new things from this thread, IIRC...)

All the same, I do feel that he[1] has left at a point that is past the usual "can't get into this/this game is not for me" point where (at least for an unpaid-for game[2]) I would have expected most departures (to their loss, perhaps, and maybe to our community's, also), but before actually giving it a good run for his money.  As if he'd actually climbed most of the cliff that is the initial learning curve (being given assistance by various people who have reached the top, but doing a lot of actual free-climbing in-between being given a steadying rope), and just about gotten a view over the edge at the far gentler-sloping foothills and sweeping plains, beyond, dotted with herds of fellow gamers carefully skirting the predatory badger prides and skirting out of habit the carp-infested streams, before deciding to abandon.


I like the idea that someone's gotten beyond the first point, but it is unsatisfying that he has aborted the learning ascent at that particular stage.  Of course, others will doubtless find the handholds and ropes laid down in this thread to be useful (not that there aren't countless similar ropes laid down on older bits of the cliff, less recently visited but still useful for passing various difficult overhanging strata and smooth-worn or crumbly aspects to the climb's face, as are common to all profiles of the cliff[3]) but the specific effort used, by all parties, feels a bit wasted.

Regarding the arguments about the unusable interface...  I can see where he is coming from.  There is a lot of background data to interface and the methods to access could use refining.  As, indeed, it is being.  On the other hand, the specific complaint about the control mechanism doesn't take into account that the Numpad item/page-(up|down), cursor (and numpad-cursor) navigation, wadx-directional and ijlm-extensional controls mean different things.  There's perhaps the argument that the /*-+ and cursor-arrows seem to be redundantly mixed (and I sometimes pursue the wrong one in a given interface[4]) except that, even there, there is a logic.  And yet for some menus[4] it is necessary for more than the two dimensions of control.  (So... rewrite them all so that this not the case?)

Oh, there's definitely some refinements possible (although it'll confuse the hell out of the "old fogeys" (I count myself as one of those, accurately or otherwise) if/when things do change) but I don't agree that it's so completely disordered.  Long-term familiarity (and hard-won experience) might well have formed part of my opinion, but perhaps there's an attitudinal aspect.

I also did once joke(-ish) in this thread that we have a good attitude and interface with each other, in these forums, because we are the kind of people who have the mental strength and flexibility to not give up straight away.  Plus psychotic tendencies having been subsumed into elven genocide and/or creative magma use.  Barring my own unfortunate propensity towards verbosity[5] I think we're all generally more restrained (outside of some of the Lower forums threads on wildly re-interpretable RL issues, but even then far less so than a lot of places I could mention), and so I did find the implied (and direct) insults to be off-key.  I wouldn't want to bar anyone from saying such things, but if it weren't that the OP has now (apparently) left, I would surely would have added my own refutations to those already given in order to quash the more unfounded criticisms.  And maybe I would have erred in even trying.  At the same time, would the alternative of "ignore him, he has nothing worth saying" have been any better?


Anyway, now that's probably a moot point.  Left here only as an historic record.  Time will probably tell how the project as a whole pans out.  Right now, I'm feeling self-conscious about having typed far more than I had intended when I started this, and yet covered hardly any of my originally intended thoughts precisely enough.  (Or satisfactorily readable, despite(/because of?) multiple edits and reversions along the way.)  If there's a TL;DR; version, it is beyond my wit to compose it, sorry.


[1] I keep saying "he", that's an assumption and possibly a linguistically misogynist default position.

[2] Although he did donate, apparently.   Kudos, if a bit impetuous, but emphasis my "left too early" point.

[3] And here the analogy attempts to encompass historic threads with much the same information, rarely visited except by those who have the Forum-Fu skills to search and find them.  This footnote exists because it may not be obvious what I was trying to say.

[4(x2)] Especially the least used (and thus less practiced) one, in particular, of the pre-embark skill assignment one.  I don't get enough practice with that, compared with some of the others, so I invariably trip up once when I first use it at the start of every embark.  But I don't have (much) trouble with the Trade screen, which I use an awful lot more.

[5] An unintentionally demonstrative sentence.  <= As was that one?  Certainly insofar as polysyllablism goes.
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