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[Loud Whispers]

i dont do beekeeping anymore due to the weird amount of micromanagement needed. set x for harvest so y are split, then set y for harvets, turn x off so z is split, then stop and wait... my farms dont need me watching every bit. nor does any other part

Really? Beekeeping for me requires no micromanagement... You might be doing it wrong ;P

[krenshala]

I believe part of the interface issue is due to the fact that Toady seems to have changed (for the better) how he does things, but hasn't gone back to make those changes for everything yet.  Also, since the game is a type of rogue-like at heart (e.g., rogue, net-hack, moria) the basis for a large amount of the commands are those of whichever rogue-like Toady liked the best.

<DF dir>/data/init/interface.txt contains the key-mappings for (almost) all the commands if you wanted to change any.  The big thing for me that made the game easier was when I discovered that while - + does up/down one line, / * does up/down one page of those same lists, and is most comfortably used from the numpad portion of the keyboard.

For construction resizing, i've been tempted to change them to match the cursor movement keys in vi because they are so close already, but just different enough to throw me off if i've been editing files in vi just before playing.

[Sappho]

If you think the interface is bad now, you should have seen it years ago. I've been around since 2d, and while some things have gotten more complicated as they've developed, the interface has definitely gotten simpler (military aside).

In any case, as so many newcomers fail to notice, this game is in Alpha. That means it's still in early development, never mind how many years it's been around. Toady works constantly on this game, which he then gives away for free, and has done more work on it than most professional big-company developers do in their entire careers. It's understandable that it can get frustrating at times when you haven't learned everything yet, but it's completely unfair to suggest that the developer has somehow done something "wrong" just because his priority is currently on game content and mechanics rather than interface. If you don't want to play it anymore, no one will mind. No one is forcing you. The game is free and if it's not for you, you won't lose anything by quitting. If you do stick around, and I assure you it's worth it, then be a little more patient. The learning curve is very steep, but it's not going to get easier anytime soon, so if you want to go back to playing Settlers, go right ahead.

[proxn_punkd]

My biggest frustration about beekeeping is that it doesn't show up properly in Dwarf Therapist for me. I have a level 6 Beekeeper (he immigrated like that), but the DT tile for beekeeping reads blank for him (not all white, which would be a grand master Beekeeper; just the same neutral color as someone totally unskilled).

[Loud Whispers]

If you think the interface is bad now, you should have seen it years ago. I've been around since 2d, and while some things have gotten more complicated as they've developed, the interface has definitely gotten simpler (military aside).

In any case, as so many newcomers fail to notice, this game is in Alpha. That means it's still in early development, never mind how many years it's been around. Toady works constantly on this game, which he then gives away for free, and has done more work on it than most professional big-company developers do in their entire careers. It's understandable that it can get frustrating at times when you haven't learned everything yet, but it's completely unfair to suggest that the developer has somehow done something "wrong" just because his priority is currently on game content and mechanics rather than interface. If you don't want to play it anymore, no one will mind. No one is forcing you. The game is free and if it's not for you, you won't lose anything by quitting. If you do stick around, and I assure you it's worth it, then be a little more patient. The learning curve is very steep, but it's not going to get easier anytime soon, so if you want to go back to playing Settlers, go right ahead.

That's no way to welcome a newb to the DF community :|

[acetech09]

If you think the interface is bad now, you should have seen it years ago. I've been around since 2d, and while some things have gotten more complicated as they've developed, the interface has definitely gotten simpler (military aside).

In any case, as so many newcomers fail to notice, this game is in Alpha. That means it's still in early development, never mind how many years it's been around. Toady works constantly on this game, which he then gives away for free, and has done more work on it than most professional big-company developers do in their entire careers. It's understandable that it can get frustrating at times when you haven't learned everything yet, but it's completely unfair to suggest that the developer has somehow done something "wrong" just because his priority is currently on game content and mechanics rather than interface. If you don't want to play it anymore, no one will mind. No one is forcing you. The game is free and if it's not for you, you won't lose anything by quitting. If you do stick around, and I assure you it's worth it, then be a little more patient. The learning curve is very steep, but it's not going to get easier anytime soon, so if you want to go back to playing Settlers, go right ahead.

That's no way to welcome a newb to the DF community :|

Dont' mean to sound harsh, but if that warning deters them in some aspect, I don't know how much they should be in this community anyway.

And to the beekeeping rail: It doesn't really require micromanagement. I create 20-30 hives for splitting, and 20-30 for harvesting. The splitting ones split off into the harvesting ones. When the harvesting ones are ready for harvesting, they get harvested, and promptly get refilled from one of the splitting ones.

[Sappho]

Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude. I've just seen the same person complain about the interface over and over again in this thread, even going so far as to suggest that Toady has intentionally made the game difficult to use and that he has some obligation to make it easier, and I've seen so many people make the same complaint, as though they had paid good money for the game and felt entitled to an easier control system... The community has changed a lot over the years, a lot of newcomers have been drawn in as the game has developed more, and I feel like the general attitude on the forums is moving away from the former near-universal gratitude for this free gem of a game and more towards the mainstream judgement of the game as though it were a polished, finished product for which we had all paid good money.

I totally understand being frustrated with the learning curve of the game at times - I was a newbie once too. But when I see people "threatening" to stop playing altogether if it doesn't get easier and attacking Toady as though he were a bad developer, I get frustrated, and at the end of a crummy weekend I guess I just feel like that needs to be said.

[Loud Whispers]

Yeah, I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude. I've just seen the same person complain about the interface over and over again in this thread, even going so far as to suggest that Toady has intentionally made the game difficult to use and that he has some obligation to make it easier, and I've seen so many people make the same complaint, as though they had paid good money for the game and felt entitled to an easier control system... The community has changed a lot over the years, a lot of newcomers have been drawn in as the game has developed more, and I feel like the general attitude on the forums is moving away from the former near-universal gratitude for this free gem of a game and more towards the mainstream judgement of the game as though it were a polished, finished product for which we had all paid good money.

I totally understand being frustrated with the learning curve of the game at times - I was a newbie once too. But when I see people "threatening" to stop playing altogether if it doesn't get easier and attacking Toady as though he were a bad developer, I get frustrated, and at the end of a crummy weekend I guess I just feel like that needs to be said.

+1

[proxn_punkd]

IMHO the impossible interface adds a feeling of accomplishment/discovery while playing the game. Something as simple as "aha! I found marble! Now if only I had some iron..." or as tedious as "oh, crap, the goblin siege is on the far side of the river, and I don't have a bridge... time to learn siege weaponry!"

[Loud Whispers]

IMHO the impossible interface adds a feeling of accomplishment/discovery while playing the game. Something as simple as "aha! I found marble! Now if only I had some iron..." or as tedious as "oh, crap, the goblin siege is on the far side of the river, and I don't have a bridge... time to learn siege weaponry!"

Yeah, it really comes as second nature when you can use it. The difficulty curve of DF is like a cliff, then after that, it's a long curve downwards into madness and !FUN!.

[murlocdummy]

IMHO the impossible interface adds a feeling of accomplishment/discovery while playing the game. Something as simple as "aha! I found marble! Now if only I had some iron..." or as tedious as "oh, crap, the goblin siege is on the far side of the river, and I don't have a bridge... time to learn siege weaponry!"

Yeah, it really comes as second nature when you can use it. The difficulty curve of DF is like a cliff, then after that, it's a long curve downwards into madness and !FUN!.

To be frank, though, when I play this game, I tend to liken it not to nethack or those other ancient games, but to more modern ones like Minecraft.  If all of the fans of Dwarf Fortress donated 0.05 USD to Toady, he'd have enough cash to hire a proper interface programmer/designer.  I've already donated my part along with the part of 99 other users.  Now the rest of you guys do your part.

As for the honey industry, I haven't been able to coerce my sole beekeeper off of his No Job status.  Unlike all the other beekeepers, which had the Install Hive task whilst they were staring blankly up into space, this one refused to do even that.  I ended up having him destroy my entire stock of hives.  Both the ones ready for gathering and the ones that I wanted to keep for installing new ones.  That seemed to do the trick.  He's leaving empty honeycombs and a river of royal jelly all over the place, and everyone else is picking it up.

[Starver]

To be frank, though, when I play this game, I tend to liken it not to nethack or those other ancient games, but to more modern ones like Minecraft.

This reminds me of Terry Pratchett being once told that his character Ponder Stibbons was a direct rip-off of Harry Potter.  But I don't know how many people know how ridiculous this idea is.  (There's another thread out there dealing with time-travel, won't go into it here.)


Not saying you're saying DF is a rip-off of MC, as you aren't, but just like there are some that say that, if anything, HP might[1] have been influenced by the niche popularity of DW, MC has been actually acknowledged[2] to be significantly inspired by DF, amongst others.


Also, Toady may be considered a control freak, because he doesn't want to hire anyone else.  It's his baby.  (OpenGL/whatever additions, aside) made by him.  This is part of the 'contract' we players have with him, in the unwritten sense at least.  You will probably find more people on these forums that are happy with this than are not (for obvious reasons... as the unhappy ones may not stick around).  As such, you may find a bit of a vehement opinion that "What Toady Does Is Right"[3], and arguing the contrary position isn't going to go down well.  So apologies in advance (and for past instances) for instances in which this gets brought home to you, insofar as it is in my power to apologise and not merely to be an apologist.

There is dissent, of course.  There are those crying out for "The next version... Now!" against those who want the next version when Toady is happy for the next version to come out.  There's all kinds of interesting discussions about how to improve the pathing algorithms (usually faster, but also other resource reductions.... or more resources for more speed, or faster speed but with some short-cuts around strict accuracy) and there's always the "better graphics" argument (not even counting the "custom tileset vs default one" debate).

I know I've made suggestions (or, rather, mumbled some half-coherent ideas of my own).  I think I even had one (probably coincidentally) adopted, once.  But with so many different people, it can be difficult to find a community opinion that is unanimous, and the casting vote (if, indeed, there was ever any other vote than his) is Toady's.


Insofar as the interface, it's also an argued point, but it's mostly Toady's decision how much (or little) change occurs, and how much (or little) power is given to the various satellite developers (such as those that tout Dwarf Therapist, etc).  And this is something you've really got to be happy about (or at least not moan), so as not to get some people getting a bit snarky.

I'm hoping this post isn't seen as snarky, I certainly don't mean it to be and I'm just trying to be thorough, but this point in the post is probably too late if you've already gained the wrong impression.




[1] Probably wasn't

[2] http://notch.tumblr.com/post/113252305/credits-due

[3] FCVO 'right'.

[proxn_punkd]

Murloc, you seem to think this is a professional project. It isn't. This is a pet project that exploded in popularity. I can show you the gaming magazine interviews where Toady talks about it, but what it boils down to is that this is a hobby game created by an amateur, just for the hell of it. He never had to let the rest of us play it, but he does, and he lets us play it for free.

[Loud Whispers]

Murloc, you seem to think this is a professional project. It isn't. This is a pet project that exploded in popularity. I can show you the gaming magazine interviews where Toady talks about it, but what it boils down to is that this is a hobby game created by an amateur, just for the hell of it. He never had to let the rest of us play it, but he does, and he lets us play it for free.

An amateur in the loosest sense, I remind you

[Sappho]

Murloc, you seem to think this is a professional project. It isn't. This is a pet project that exploded in popularity. I can show you the gaming magazine interviews where Toady talks about it, but what it boils down to is that this is a hobby game created by an amateur, just for the hell of it. He never had to let the rest of us play it, but he does, and he lets us play it for free.

This. If you donate to Toady, good for you, but don't think that you're helping him hire more developers or making the development process move any faster. He's doing it himself because he wants to, not because he can't afford to hire new people, and the donations simply allow him to do that without having to get another job to pay the rent.