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[Graknorke]

I just want this game to get to a point where I can be a traveling bard, playing whimsical tricks on the townsfolk and sparking wars with my jesterly jibes. Or something.
The main thing is traveling bard.

[Rowanas]

How are you working the "distance from Europe" thing? Is the world divided into sectors, and the closest sector border to Europe determines the distance, or is it determined by the average sector distance? Do intervening, discovered civs still count as space for determining how distant another civ is, or do discovered civs help to "Europe up" civs they're touching? If civs are separated by seas or other major obstacles, does that increase the relative distance for Europeanisation? Will we ever be able to adjust what kind of civilisation inhabits the starting zone, for instance, setting an Middle Eastern start zone, or an Oriental start instead of European?

[Neonivek]

I just want this game to get to a point where I can be a traveling bard, playing whimsical tricks on the townsfolk and sparking wars with my jesterly jibes. Or something.
The main thing is traveling bard.

So a Troublador?

[Graknorke]

I just want this game to get to a point where I can be a traveling bard, playing whimsical tricks on the townsfolk and sparking wars with my jesterly jibes. Or something.
The main thing is traveling bard.

So a Troublador?

I can't find that word on the internet. Apart from names of restaurants/bars/nightclubs.
What's it mean?

[Mephansteras]

I just want this game to get to a point where I can be a traveling bard, playing whimsical tricks on the townsfolk and sparking wars with my jesterly jibes. Or something.
The main thing is traveling bard.

So a Troublador?

I can't find that word on the internet. Apart from names of restaurants/bars/nightclubs.
What's it mean?

Troubador, courtesy of Wikipedia.

[Graknorke]

I just want this game to get to a point where I can be a traveling bard, playing whimsical tricks on the townsfolk and sparking wars with my jesterly jibes. Or something.
The main thing is traveling bard.

So a Troublador?

I can't find that word on the internet. Apart from names of restaurants/bars/nightclubs.
What's it mean?

Troubador, courtesy of Wikipedia.

He put troublador, not troubador.
Unless it was a typo. In which case, pretty much. But not poetry. More like musical violence and sparking off political things. Under the guise of your friendly traveling music man (who comes from far away).

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

Sorry if this has been asked but will it be one language to a civ or one to a couple civs?

I don't think it has. Each civ, ancient or modern, will have its own unique language.

I just want this game to get to a point where I can be a traveling bard, playing whimsical tricks on the townsfolk and sparking wars with my jesterly jibes. Or something.
The main thing is traveling bard.

That is a wonderful idea. Musical instruments... hmm...

How are you working the "distance from Europe" thing? Is the world divided into sectors, and the closest sector border to Europe determines the distance, or is it determined by the average sector distance? Do intervening, discovered civs still count as space for determining how distant another civ is, or do discovered civs help to "Europe up" civs they're touching? If civs are separated by seas or other major obstacles, does that increase the relative distance for Europeanisation? Will we ever be able to adjust what kind of civilisation inhabits the starting zone, for instance, setting an Middle Eastern start zone, or an Oriental start instead of European?

Good questions. To the first one, about distance, I'm afraid the answer is "I'm not yet sure"! It might start off with an area, say 25x25 which counts as the perspective of the game, then any civ that approaches that zone (or a civ that approaches a civ that has approached that zone) will be gradually included in the perspective. It's hard to describe. As for the "starting zone", that zone should border on what we would recognize as Middle Eastern/Oriental, which is to say some of those civs might be known about, but not in detail. Again, in the era I'm thinking, people may have vaguely known that Japan 'existed', and the odd person might, by some strange sequence of events, have visited it, but there was no regular trade. That's the kind of middle-ground I'd like; non-European but still quite advanced areas will either be fully normalized in terms of foreign relations, and you'll know of them, or they'll be on the borders of the "known" world and some data, though not a lot, will exist on them.

Basically, I'd like world generation to conclude with maybe 50% of the world known; of that which is known, most will be 'European', some will not; of that which is semi-known, most will be non-European, but still quite technologically advanced; outside that, they will be basically entirely unknown, and could range widely in terms of technological sophistication.

More like musical violence and sparking off political things.

This is a phrase I really like.

[Rowanas]

I just want this game to get to a point where I can be a traveling bard, playing whimsical tricks on the townsfolk and sparking wars with my jesterly jibes. Or something.
The main thing is traveling bard.

So a Troublador?

I can't find that word on the internet. Apart from names of restaurants/bars/nightclubs.
What's it mean?

Troubador, courtesy of Wikipedia.

He put troublador, not troubador.
Unless it was a typo. In which case, pretty much. But not poetry. More like musical violence and sparking off political things. Under the guise of your friendly traveling music man (who comes from far away).

I thought it was a witty pun based on the words trouble and troubador. You described wrecking shit and rocking out, so you're a troublador.

URR, thanks for the answers. I understand that until -you- know, you can't let -me- know, but the overview is much appreciated.

[varsovie]

I'm glad you've raised this question. I thought about this for a long time, and whilst you are obviously right - synonyms do not transfer perfectly, verb/noun/adjective/etc order differs, etc - I had to weigh two logics against each other.

Firstly, to make realistic languages, they would have to differ in this way. I could make them differ in word length (easy) but varying word order, whilst still preserving the meaning of the sentence, would be immensely hard without a way for the game to detect verbs/nouns etc, and then reorder them. Equally, you'd also have to have the generator detect possessives, cases, etc, and that would be damned difficult as well. However, I recognize you are right, and that this would be more realistic.

Thank for the clarifications, although varying word order could be easy if you flag your words.

As for the flags, loog good so far, will military formation/towns have flag possibly including the one of their civilization/nation? (like the many Brit colonies having the union jack in a corner)

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

URR, thanks for the answers. I understand that until -you- know, you can't let -me- know, but the overview is much appreciated.

You're welcome - as I say, I'm not sure about this just yet, which is why I'm working on other bits of the history generation (in the broadest sense) first. Would like to finish flags off today, then I can start giving some thought to myths, legends, heroes, monsters, etc...

Thank for the clarifications, although varying word order could be easy if you flag your words.

As for the flags, loog good so far, will military formation/towns have flag possibly including the one of their civilization/nation? (like the many Brit colonies having the union jack in a corner)

True, but again, it's the gameplay concern that gets me. I'm sure there is some Python library with a full English dictionary and specifications of what each word is, though...

Excellent - hmm, that's an interesting question. I think I would be able to compress flags down to maybe 1/4 size to stick in a corner - I'll ponder it. Probably yes, is your answer, and I like the idea. Would give a lot of thematic regularity to city flags, etc. Also, maybe settlements of a civ can only use the same colours in their flags, or at least similar colours? Hmm.

[Leatra]

How are you working the "distance from Europe" thing? Is the world divided into sectors, and the closest sector border to Europe determines the distance, or is it determined by the average sector distance? Do intervening, discovered civs still count as space for determining how distant another civ is, or do discovered civs help to "Europe up" civs they're touching? If civs are separated by seas or other major obstacles, does that increase the relative distance for Europeanisation? Will we ever be able to adjust what kind of civilisation inhabits the starting zone, for instance, setting an Middle Eastern start zone, or an Oriental start instead of European?

Good questions. To the first one, about distance, I'm afraid the answer is "I'm not yet sure"! It might start off with an area, say 25x25 which counts as the perspective of the game, then any civ that approaches that zone (or a civ that approaches a civ that has approached that zone) will be gradually included in the perspective. It's hard to describe. As for the "starting zone", that zone should border on what we would recognize as Middle Eastern/Oriental, which is to say some of those civs might be known about, but not in detail. Again, in the era I'm thinking, people may have vaguely known that Japan 'existed', and the odd person might, by some strange sequence of events, have visited it, but there was no regular trade. That's the kind of middle-ground I'd like; non-European but still quite advanced areas will either be fully normalized in terms of foreign relations, and you'll know of them, or they'll be on the borders of the "known" world and some data, though not a lot, will exist on them.

Basically, I'd like world generation to conclude with maybe 50% of the world known; of that which is known, most will be 'European', some will not; of that which is semi-known, most will be non-European, but still quite technologically advanced; outside that, they will be basically entirely unknown, and could range widely in terms of technological sophistication.

Does it have to be THAT realistic? I thought the cultures in the game won't be that similar to real life cultures.

I mean, the place where the world starts genning is going to be Europa, the east of that there will be Arabians and further east will have Japans, etc. Is that how it's going to work? That seems like a bit too much identical to our world. I agree that cultures should be similar to the ones in real life that seems a little too predictable. When you start the game, you will know that the northern civs will be aggressive raiding civs and southern civs will have no techolongy. Moreover, if a civ is labeled as "okay, this civ is like... arabians" that will ruin the potential of exploring. We will know that they live on deserts, that they are religious, etc. If you make the civs more randomized, it will make exploring more fun. Maybe you'll start in a peaceful and technologically advanced civ which resembles the Arabians (mounted archery is king!), built on a place where winter seems to be the only season. As you explore the west, you'll come across an extremely religious civ with a powerful navy which resembles the Aztecs, built on a cluster of islands, threatening to attack your civ if you don't embrace their religion (Aztecs had polytheism).

You talked about how civs will have different modifiers long time ago and if you build on that (like, industrial civ, trade civ, military civ, a combination of some traits like aggressive religious civs, industrial science civs, etc), that would create some awesome cultures without going too far away from the ones we have in real life.

I think, when we first start the game, we should have an option to choose between the civilizations to decide where our nationality is and where will we start the game. You should have an easier time if you are trying to join the army of your own culture. "Europa is the center and more bizarre civs are genned around it" thing seems like a big hit to the potential of the game with this kind of history generation. I mean, if I'm not going to be a Caribbean pirate in a land of ninjas, or fight against a samurai as a knight (both of them never happened IRL) why should I play a video game?

[PokemonRocks85]

I have some questions.

Will there be a map for you to use (minimap, Worldmap, Etc.) or no? im thinking you would try making it realistic and have a map in your inventory that you bought somewhere or created if you know your surroundings and have mapmaking skills. Also will this be like a mixture of Mount & Blade, Crusader kings 2, and EU3 but in a roguelike style? I may have suggestions for you later on or more questions but for now im done.

[Ultima Ratio Regum]

Does it have to be THAT realistic? I thought the cultures in the game won't be that similar to real life cultures.

I mean, the place where the world starts genning is going to be Europa, the east of that there will be Arabians and further east will have Japans, etc. Is that how it's going to work? That seems like a bit too much identical to our world. I agree that cultures should be similar to the ones in real life that seems a little too predictable. When you start the game, you will know that the northern civs will be aggressive raiding civs and southern civs will have no techolongy. Moreover, if a civ is labeled as "okay, this civ is like... arabians" that will ruin the potential of exploring. We will know that they live on deserts, that they are religious, etc. If you make the civs more randomized, it will make exploring more fun. Maybe you'll start in a peaceful and technologically advanced civ which resembles the Arabians (mounted archery is king!), built on a place where winter seems to be the only season. As you explore the west, you'll come across an extremely religious civ with a powerful navy which resembles the Aztecs, built on a cluster of islands, threatening to attack your civ if you don't embrace their religion (Aztecs had polytheism).

You talked about how civs will have different modifiers long time ago and if you build on that (like, industrial civ, trade civ, military civ, a combination of some traits like aggressive religious civs, industrial science civs, etc), that would create some awesome cultures without going too far away from the ones we have in real life.

I think, when we first start the game, we should have an option to choose between the civilizations to decide where our nationality is and where will we start the game. You should have an easier time if you are trying to join the army of your own culture. "Europa is the center and more bizarre civs are genned around it" thing seems like a big hit to the potential of the game with this kind of history generation. I mean, if I'm not going to be a Caribbean pirate in a land of ninjas, or fight against a samurai as a knight (both of them never happened IRL) why should I play a video game?

Don't worry, the civs are going to be totally randomized, but what I wrote before wasn't very clear. There will be no presets, and I want to have as many strange combinations as possible, but there are just a few particular features I want the "known" civs to have, but these are few and far between. There will be nothing that ties cultural, or architecture, or anything else, to climate or environment. In general I'd like all the known civs to be of a comparable, roughly, level of technology, and the only things in common will be things like sharing concepts of coats of arms (though I may one day add in variations on even that idea). I'd like arab-esque or japan-esque or europe-esque civs to all generate, and all varieties of those, and I definitely will *not* be forcing specific kinds of civs to appear . I really like the kind of example you gave, and that's the kind of thing I want - but I do just want to make sure civs outside the "known" area - while they may sometimes of the same tech level - will sometimes not be. It's a tricky balance.

Ultimately, I'd like the known areas to be of a generally similar tech level (unless specific external civs are known), but hugely differ within that. I am going to make certain regions of the map more likely to generate certain civilization traits, but these are *random*, not climate based - so the 'west' might be more likely to generate militaristic civs, the east more likely to generate religious, a particular island more likely to generate particularly cultured civs, etc. In my previous post, I didn't really mean "European" in that sense, but rather technologically advanced, and "knowable", and sharing a few concepts between them, even if everything else is wholly different. That's not very clear, and I shall try and elaborate on it again tomorrow/once I start civ generation/in a later blog entry. Does what I've written make sense? Tell me if not, and I shall explain further. In one sentence... the known world should be advanced, but hugely varied. That's the best way to put it. I was using the word "European" to conflate a lot of things, rather foolishly.

In the semi-near future, I'm going to be starting to generate this kind of stuff, and the first stage is to fill the world with areas that have a preference to certain kinds of civ. It'll be a mild one, and you'll still see variation, but I think it could be a solid way to get a degree of similarity present across region, but those similarities will be randomized.

I have some questions.

Will there be a map for you to use (minimap, Worldmap, Etc.) or no? im thinking you would try making it realistic and have a map in your inventory that you bought somewhere or created if you know your surroundings and have mapmaking skills. Also will this be like a mixture of Mount & Blade, Crusader kings 2, and EU3 but in a roguelike style? I may have suggestions for you later on or more questions but for now im done.

There already is - press Space in-game, or T to travel. There will also one day be actual maps that you can purchase, or create, which I have a few ideas for. Do shout with any more ideas/questions

[Leatra]

-snip-

Oh, I see. "European" as in the technology and the culture that the most civs in the "known area" somewhat share. Still, I'd want the traits of civs to be more randomized but I guess that kind of extreme procedural generation could create some crazy things with no realism at all. I mean, it's a known fact that real-life civs which started on an island are much more unique (look at ancient Japan) since it didn't have much contact with foreign lands. You gotta generate the world according to that. Civs which are in close contact with each other are likely to share similar traits and culture. Close foreign relations usually equals similar traits. If some zones will have a tendency to have similar traits (like east being more likely to generate religious civs) will it be randomized? As in, a continent in the east will have religious civs on one genned world and in another world, in the east you'll see aggressive small civs and city-states always warring with each other (which you can conquer through by acting like a careful manipulation, diplomacy, and intrigue. God I love creating scenarios like that!)

That got me thinking, we should be able to keep our deals secret with other civs. Let's say my civ is a protector of the weak and the symbol of peace. There is one particular civ I want it to disappear (for greater good!). I should be able to sell a nearby civ which has a reputation for being ruthless and very aggressive (but not to me, the protector of peace who wants to help them!) some weapons and supplies or even give it to them for free (for bringing peace, of course!) but keep it as a secret with a chance of it becoming discovered. Maybe WE can be the ones who are out to expose secret deals like that (for the right price). Reveal the true manipulative nature of a so-called peaceful civ! Man, my brain is like imploding with all these possibilities.

By the way,

A particular island more likely to generate particularly cultured civs,

This reminded me of Atlantis. It would be awesome to find an alien culture that's highly advanced like that, even if it's a little unrealistic, right? (*wink* *wink*)

[Mongol13524]

PTF.