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Author Topic: Frozen Synapse - First Bay 12 Tournament underway  (Read 20649 times)

Ma88hew

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Re: Frozen Synapse
« Reply #75 on: October 10, 2011, 08:39:46 pm »

So are we just going to do Dark Exterm. with set team composition?

Dark Exterm. can tend to be unfair for one player. Ergo: Shotgun guy 3 paces away from a rifle.


I would honestly prefer light/dark disputed. You get different units(different strategies!), you start on opposite sides of the map, and its all about map control. Exploiting your unit composition to its best is key to victory.

I also honestly prefer light over dark. Dark tends to be more luck based, though it has its own merits.
Personally, I like Extermination better, for the equal unit combinations and single winning condition. If only you could start Exterm. on opposite sides all the time...
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Volatar

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Re: Frozen Synapse
« Reply #76 on: October 10, 2011, 09:22:48 pm »

So are we just going to do Dark Exterm. with set team composition?

Dark Exterm. can tend to be unfair for one player. Ergo: Shotgun guy 3 paces away from a rifle.


I would honestly prefer light/dark disputed. You get different units(different strategies!), you start on opposite sides of the map, and its all about map control. Exploiting your unit composition to its best is key to victory.

I also honestly prefer light over dark. Dark tends to be more luck based, though it has its own merits.

Disputed is honestly my favorite game mode for those very reasons. It's the only mode with real dynamic map control (secure is essentially camping).

I prefer dark over light myself, as more mind games and cleverness can result, but I have no problem with either.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Frozen Synapse
« Reply #77 on: October 10, 2011, 11:09:14 pm »

Yeah, regardless of what mode we do,  I'd have to put my vote for dark. At least half the fun for me is predicting how enemies will move, based on the map layout, unit composition, and their last known position, and then placing my own units to have fields of fire on where I think they'll be. Light ruins this by making long-term thought almost an *hem* afterthought; if you always know where everyone is, all you have to do is guess what they'll do next turn, and the outcome basically comes down to who has better initial positioning at the start of the turn, rather than who planned better, because with total knowledge of everything but enemy thoughts, you can typically nail down every possible movement for each unit and plan your own movements to counter that. That isn't tactics, and it certainly isn't exciting. If you're in a situation where they know exactly where you are, and they'll have the advantage in every possible encounter, the only things you can do are a) something incredibly stupid that may be unpredictable enough to pay off, or b) pray that the opponent missed a counter. Neither is skill, both are luck.

I'm trying not to bring realism into this, for obvious reasons, but this is a game based on squad tactics. A large part of that is dealing with the aspect that you should only be able to know what the enemy is doing or where they are if a) you predict their movements correctly and b) if you can see them, or have seen them fairly recently and can give a reasonable approximation of where they are now. I (and I assume most other people who do so) prefer dark because you're basing your plans on where the enemy units were, what they are, and what you think are the most reasonable things for them to do. I play by looking both sides and figuring out the best movements, particularly in regards to longer term strategy (taking defensable rooms, setting up lines of fire, capturing objectives as safely as possible), and then what I would do for each side to counter those movements. Once I've got something worked out that should let me outplay the enemy (usually by not taking the first or second obvious choice), I lock it in. I don't think that players should just be able to ignore that aspect of the game. I don't care that light exists, but I absolutely detest playing it.


Just my opinion, and I'm sure someone disagrees with it, but I thought I would put it out there before we get too far into this.
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Pandarsenic

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Re: Frozen Synapse
« Reply #78 on: October 10, 2011, 11:43:32 pm »

Light is a joke. If you think Dark is luck-based, you're bad and will lose the tournament. It's that simple. This game doesn't have luck unless two units in identical circumstances start shooting.

Anyway, I actually strongly vote for Secure because I feel that the bidding phase is one of the most tactically intense parts of Frozen Synapse.
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Biag

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Re: Frozen Synapse
« Reply #79 on: October 10, 2011, 11:55:59 pm »

I agree with Pandar and Flying Dice. Dark promotes carefulness, planning, and strategy over pure situational tactics, while Light promotes situational tactics over situational planning. Both have merits, but I think for purposes of a competitive tournament Dark would be better. It's also a lot more exciting when you have, say, one shotgun left and no idea where the enemy is.

EDIT: I would still play, enjoy, and be enthusiastic about a Light tournament, of course, but I just wanted to toss my opinion out there.
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Volatar

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Re: Frozen Synapse
« Reply #80 on: October 11, 2011, 12:04:55 am »

My problem with secure is that it can come across really boring for the defender. I haven't really encountered that exciting bidding phase that you speak of. As I have said before, I like Disputed.

If worst comes to worst and we can't decide we will just run extermination.

Thanks guys, I think we will definitely be doing dark. *pumps fist since the side we wanted to win won out*

I will see if I can get on in the morning and give the tournament system a test with my and my sister's accounts. I'll be honest: I discovered the tournament button, saw that it requires a list of players, and didn't delve further into it. I don't know how it actually works (or if it even works at all). I will see what it does in the morning (oh crap. That's 5 hours away. I better go to sleep soon D: )

Preferably the system will allow us to specify not only gamemode, but specific map seeds that we preselect for balance. (Would be best if we can find some with a few duplicate games on them already.)

Even if the ingame tournament system is totally broken or not useful for us I can always run it manually. Brackets aren't particularly hard to do.
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Quote from: Vilien
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Sowelu

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Re: Frozen Synapse
« Reply #81 on: October 11, 2011, 02:31:24 am »

Man.  After you reach a point where you see sneaky tricks (He's going to edge around the side of the map and shoot me through that window!  I'll jump out of my almost-safe hideyhole and shoot him in the back), you suddenly wind up in a world of fakeouts.  He knows that move would be an easy kill against a scrub, but I know that he knows, and he knows that I know that he knows.  Maybe he just wants me to think he'll do it.  But maybe he wants me to think that he just wants me to think he'll do it.  My head hurts.

I've been having astounding luck with rocket launchers and cover, lately.  People just love to sprint to cover at the start of the match, and that makes it perfect to blow up, or drop a grenade behind~  I use my rocket launchers when ducking, like, 75% of the time.
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Siquo

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Re: Frozen Synapse
« Reply #82 on: October 11, 2011, 03:09:38 am »

Yeah, Dark becomes WIFOM. It's awesome :)

Dark disputed has my vote, as well.
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mendonca

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Re: Frozen Synapse
« Reply #83 on: October 11, 2011, 03:26:09 am »

I've only ever played dark exterm, wouldn't vote for light, but will joyously engage with whatever the final decision is.
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Volatar

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Re: Frozen Synapse
« Reply #84 on: October 11, 2011, 05:50:16 am »

Looks like the ingame tournament system is exactly what we need. Put in the players and it generates brackets for us, and allows us to specify the map for each round.

This means we can have several different gametypes for flavor if we want :)
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Quote from: Vilien
Yes, you should always apply more magma.

Pandarsenic

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Re: Frozen Synapse
« Reply #85 on: October 11, 2011, 06:49:16 am »

Does it have a Symmetrical Extermination option? I'd prefer that to Disputed.

Volatar: The intensity of Dark Secure bidding is closely linked to asymmetrical loadouts and trying to guess what your opponent will bid so you can bid more/less as appropriate.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Frozen Synapse
« Reply #86 on: October 11, 2011, 07:48:20 am »

We could just, say, run an extermination tournament and then a disputed one after it ends...  ;D
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3

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Re: Frozen Synapse
« Reply #87 on: October 11, 2011, 08:50:57 am »

Th3 is in.

I don't think I've found myself in a situation that's completely inescapable yet, even with randomly-placed dark exterm. Even if there's a shotgunner right around the corner there's usually cover nearby for you to crouch behind and confuse him or something. That said, we could just stay away from random dark exterm and just use the maps that have players in each corner.

Disputed is fine by me. Secure... less so.
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Wravburn

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Re: Frozen Synapse
« Reply #88 on: October 11, 2011, 11:55:09 am »

Wravburn is in.

I haven't played it a lot yet, so i cannot give my preferences, so I'll roll with the majority!


PS:This is under the assumption that is has some sort of 1turn/24hrs construction.
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Flying Dice

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Re: Frozen Synapse
« Reply #89 on: October 11, 2011, 02:39:43 pm »

Dear gog no Disputed, please. Horrifically unbalanced + camptastic objective. Honestly, I'd also probably want to veto hostages, just because of how easy I've found it to be to use my units as a distraction while the hosties sprint behind cover in round 2 and get away scott free. Hell, I've had matches where my units never fired a shot, because the map layout let me get the hostages out without the defender being able to block every route.
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