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[Shark]

Extend.

Nice of you to do that.

Who do you suspect? A player that pounded on some newbie, admitted to making up a bunch of stuff to appease me, claimed Cop that was roleblocked on Night 1, and now doesn't have any suspicions, sounds pretty fishy to me.

Native, you're still being awfully quiet. Why? Nothing to say? You've been doing that thing that I watch for - being online, having had your question answered, and not posting. Also, your reason for not believing Orangebottle sounds an awful lot like mine, which worries me far more than not posting. Care to elaborate on your case against Orangebottle?

So, you give people crap for the same reason you were about to lynch Orangebottle over?

Imiknorris, This isn't the first time you've accused people of how similar their arguments sound to yours. Worried about your image?

Right.

Is that the only thing you suspect him for?

I want answers. Unless we extend again, we have less than a day. I won't be here in a couple hours, and won't get back until about 1.5 hours before day ends. We need to find something. It he has good reasons, i'll drop the vote. It's obvious at this point that this game doesn't have hammers, orangebottle had 4 votes on him at one point.

Also, do you suspect anyone? Time's running out and you mostly just call people out on their arguments whenever they try to get aggresive.

[Orangebottle]

OB: I can see where that would be seen as confusing. I haven't seen you asking a lot of questions either, only defending yourself. Now that the pressure is slightly off, who do you suspect and why?

Hrm. Well, Shark is still screaming newb vibes, and i'm unsure of how to tell the difference between town and scum when the person in question is a newb. I'm not getting very good vibes from Imiknorris, and I'll probably find something to ask him about. Jim is still Jim, and I have no idea how to read Jim. You're on the same level as Imiknorris, Native. Arathos....hrm. I'm not sure.
Imiknorris:

Native, you're still being awfully quiet. Why? Nothing to say? You've been doing that thing that I watch for - being online, having had your question answered, and not posting. Also, your reason for not believing Orangebottle sounds an awful lot like mine, which worries me far more than not posting. Care to elaborate on your case against Orangebottle?

...You actively stalk everyone's profiles to make sure we aren't lurking? That's more than a little paranoid.

Why are you using incomplete meta-evidence? I've heard that using evidence from other active games is frowned apon. There's also the part where using this evidence is bad because I could be scum in both games, or neither, or only scum in one of them. That's the reason I haven't bothered with even trying to use that evidence here.
Native:

Already told you, didn't pressure Andrew because I got busy and I felt nothing else useful would come out of D1.

You can always get more useful information during the day. Why did you feel that nothing useful would come out of day one?

And what happened? Any poking or pressuring on Andrew would have been wasted effort.

You could've pressured someone else. Anyone else.

I did get ninja'd, it happens a lot when several people are active and it'll happen to you.

He posted his case a good ~19 minutes before you.  If you were making the post when Shark posted his argument, you would've had a "Warning - a new reply has been posted, you may wish to edit your post." message and if you had it all prepared beforehand, then you had plenty of time to read it considering that there's a topic summary right beneath the window I'm putting this text into right now. That's generously assuming that you missed it when you went into the topic to hit the reply button, since it would've been two posts above the bottom of the page.

I think he only stopped tunneling Shark because everybody was catching on to him, and now that he can't go after the weakest player, he doesn't know what to do. Evident by his lack of questioning and suspicions.

I was in my Microsoft Office Certification class. I just got home from school about an hour ago.
Arathos:When do you get off work? I'd like to know when to expect something from you.
Shark:You ignored Imiknorris's counter-question.

Imiknorris, This isn't the first time you've accused people of how similar their arguments sound to yours. Worried about your image?

Really? The only other case I can see of me accusing someone of parroting was me asking Native if he was just going to parrot you (and Jim) or actually contribute. Would you mind pointing out any others I missed?

Simple:Er, we had two votes for an extension before you even put up the notice that we needed one more vote.

[NativeForeigner]

OB: You're either missing or ignoring a very important part of my last post directed to you. Go back and check.

Your suspicions: If you don't know how to read Jim, go back on his past games where he's been scum and where he's been town. Find any differences in play that you can. It's not all that hard to dig up some sort of guide.

Because from my experience, there's only so much that comes out D1, we got lucky that Dia slipped so badly, but also because of that, nobody was really all that focused on hunting anyone else until Dia was gone, so I personally felt it would have been wasted effort to ask Andrew any serious questions. It turned out I was right about that. I didn't think about poking or pressuring anyone else at the time because it was D1, I already asked everyone questions, and I had my top two picks.

In regards to the ninja'd business, I started my post, got distracted, came back and finished it, Shark had posted, I glanced over his post and didn't bother to edit mine (I mentioned way back when Imiknorris first brought this up that I didn't bother to edit the post when I got the warning). Why omit something I had wanted to say just because someone else had said it? They don't suddenly own that piece of information. I've said all this at least once before in this game and the fact that Imiknorris keeps bringing it up is obnoxious. I don't like repeating myself.

In regards to your hunting, I wasn't talking about just today. You haven't done much since the pressure got taken off of you.

[Urist Imiknorris]

...You actively stalk everyone's profiles to make sure we aren't lurking? That's more than a little paranoid.

Just the people who haven't posted in a while.

Why are you using incomplete meta-evidence? I've heard that using evidence from other active games is frowned apon. There's also the part where using this evidence is bad because I could be scum in both games, or neither, or only scum in one of them. That's the reason I haven't bothered with even trying to use that evidence here.

Good point.

I didn't misunderstand anything, that's what you were saying. It's not MY job to prove that somebody else is town. That's there own damn job. Why would I try to prove the very person I think is scum is town?

No. The job of the person you vote is not to prove that they're town. Your job as their accuser is to prove that they're scum.

So in either case, why are you trying to protect OB? He lied and you're trying to tell me that he's confused town, citing a completely different game as evidence?

Now that I've actually been asked this, I guess I won't be able to get it to work:

Trying to figure out whether you or Orangebottle was scummier wasn't being productive - OB's claim is flawed, and you were being rather passive about it. I decided that I could cover both bases and eliminate uncertainty on my part by leaving Orangebottle alive. He'd probably get vigged, so even if I was wrong about you, my other most likely suspect would be killed as well.

I'm sorry for how I've been playing today. I probably shouldn't try to play Mafia while stressed - it will just piss me off, which will hurt my case. Unvote. I'm going to bed.

[NativeForeigner]

I didn't misunderstand anything, that's what you were saying. It's not MY job to prove that somebody else is town. That's there own damn job. Why would I try to prove the very person I think is scum is town?

No. The job of the person you vote is not to prove that they're town. Your job as their accuser is to prove that they're scum.

You DO realize that I already had Dia pegged as scum and gave my reasons why, right? It was when I told him that it was up to him to prove it to me he wasn't scum or pray that someone scummier came up that you threw a fit, so I'm still not seeing your point. I know it's my job to prove that they're scum, and I did that. But he also, assuming he wanted to live, had some responsibility to show that he was town, such as through hunting or whatnot. Understand?

Now that I've actually been asked this, I guess I won't be able to get it to work:

Trying to figure out whether you or Orangebottle was scummier wasn't being productive - OB's claim is flawed, and you were being rather passive about it. I decided that I could cover both bases and eliminate uncertainty on my part by leaving Orangebottle alive. He'd probably get vigged, so even if I was wrong about you, my other most likely suspect would be killed as well.

I'm sorry for how I've been playing today. I probably shouldn't try to play Mafia while stressed - it will just piss me off, which will hurt my case. Unvote. I'm going to bed.

Your plan relies on the vig actually being a vig and not a SK masquerading. Were you really ready to take that chance?

It's fine, that happens. Drink some water and get some rest.

[Urist_McArathos]

So let's see...suspicions so far:

Orangebottle: I'm not liking his play so far, but I'm inclined to believe his claim, for now.  If he wasn't claiming cop, he'd be my top suspect.  If I decide it's likely a fake claim, my vote will go right back to him.  However, just because he's a cop doesn't mean he knows what he's doing or is playing well, so rejecting his claim because his play has been sloppy is a logical fallacy.  I've seen town players oblivious to the powers and wincons listed in the opening post (Dariush pops into mind as an EXCELLENT example), so I find it possible a cop player could get mixed up about the scum team, especially when a kill and block happen in the same night and he was under the impression scum could only do one or the other.

Native: Town vibes.  Seems to be hunting and observant when he's around.

Jim: Bizarrely timid and quiet...for Jim anyway.  I'm used to him finding a target and tearing into them like a pitbull, clamping down and relentlessly shaking until they either get lynched or break town and he finds a better target.  His scum play is pretty much identical, except if you're careful you can detect a tinge of predatory behavior (as he's more on the lookout for a mislynch target).  Town for now, I guess, since the best I can say is "you're a bit different from what I think your meta is", and that's an outrageously weak case, to the point of not being one at all.

Shark: Newb.  Requires a closer look, but I'm leaning town.

Urist Imiknorris:  Let's see...

Regardless, my vote stays on you until either you can prove you're not scum or someone scummier slips up.

Again, the burden of proof is on the town, not the scum. Yes, I have pointed this out before - we'll get back to that.

I don't like this.  The burden of proof that someone is scum IS on the town, but saying "I'm not convinced anyone else is scummier than you so I'm not unvoting" is a valid attitude, as is the statement that it's up to an individual player to prove they're town.  The burden of proving their innocence IS on the alleged scum, either by defeating the arguments against them or finding a proper target (ideally both).  Imiknorris should know this, and this is just an attempt to make Native look scummy for not unvoting OB.

You then proceed to sit on your vote against Diakron for the rest of the day, save for a bit of poking at Andrew. Why? Why not pressure Andrew while your vote remains on Diakron?

Native had already answered this a couple times (and did again in his most recent post as of my typing this).  He didn't feel anything more productive would come from Day 1.  I'm not agreeing with that statement, but the fact that Urist isn't attacking his rationale and instead is asking the same question that's been answered several times tells me that he doesn't really care what the answer is anyway, he just wants to bring something up to make Native look scummy.

Day 2: You begin by parroting Shark, using the lame excuse of "I got ninja'd." When I asked you about the burden-of-proof post above, you proceeded to misunderstand it and assume I meant that town's goal was to prove that the scum were town. That makes no sense at all, so why would you assume that I meant it that way? Then your entire case against Orangebottle was that he was tunneling on Shark, which isn't much by itself. Then OB claimed and you just said that it was full of holes, without actually exploring any of them. Why so passive?

So, if your vote's on Orangebottle because he was tunneling on Shark and his claim is full of holes:

What do you think of the fact that he stopped tunneling on Shark?
Would you like to point out some of these holes, other than the one that's already been discussed regarding the mafia miscount?

Native already tore this attack apart in this response.  It's a shitty case with little merit, and Native pointed out a few places where Imiknorris had every reason to know parts of it were invalid.

He's either scum or really confused - I see more of the latter, especially considering that he's having similar problems in Ockham's Mafia as well.

Despite the fact this could really help him escape the noose, OB himself proved why this is poor reasoning.  Again, you know better.


Coupled with the fact that I had a real issue with how he was attacking OB about the whole vig scenario (summarized a lot better here), I feel Urist Imiknorris thought he had a good mislynch target, did a piss-poor job of making a "unique" case on him (because apparently he believes having a similar case is a scumtell, and thus wouldn't want to make the same mistake), and is switching his focus to the allegedly lurky Native.

McArathos, Jim, Orangebottle: Where do your suspicions lie?

I think I've made my suspicions clear enough Urist Imiknorris.


PPE: Bah, ninja'd twice.  Native tackled something I addressed, and Imiknorris kinda sorta pre-emptively answered a suspicion of mine.  Still posting unaltered since pretty much everything still stands anyway.

[Orangebottle]

Why are you using incomplete meta-evidence? I've heard that using evidence from other active games is frowned apon. There's also the part where using this evidence is bad because I could be scum in both games, or neither, or only scum in one of them. That's the reason I haven't bothered with even trying to use that evidence here.

Good point.

I'm pretty sure that was more than just a statement.
If you saw the point, why didn't you answer my question?

Native:Perhaps it's because I'm posting from my iPod, but I can't find it. If you want me to respond to or answer a specific part of your post, point it out so I can do exactly that.

Why omit something I had wanted to say just because someone else had said it?

I'll have to answer you when I get on my computer in a bit. It's rather noisy at the moment and I can't think of a good response.

[NativeForeigner]

Native:Perhaps it's because I'm posting from my iPod, but I can't find it. If you want me to respond to or answer a specific part of your post, point it out so I can do exactly that.

Why omit something I had wanted to say just because someone else had said it?

I'll have to answer you when I get on my computer in a bit. It's rather noisy at the moment and I can't think of a good response.

That could explain it. Here it is:

Also, explain this (Imiknorris, pay attention to this): In this post you CLEARLY know how many scum are left, one. Because it attributes to your confusion about being roleblocked. But in this post, you try to play it off like you had no clue. You even managed to ignore the mod. Explain yourself.

[Jim Groovester]

...You actively stalk everyone's profiles to make sure we aren't lurking? That's more than a little paranoid.

Dude, yes. It's information that's readily available. Why not use it? I'll look at people's profiles to see how long ago they've posted, when they were last online, and their posting habits elsewhere around the forum, especially if I think they're lurking.

I want answers. Unless we extend again, we have less than a day. I won't be here in a couple hours, and won't get back until about 1.5 hours before day ends. We need to find something. It he has good reasons, i'll drop the vote. It's obvious at this point that this game doesn't have hammers, orangebottle had 4 votes on him at one point.

A pressure vote this late in the day? Seriously?

You didn't answer my question. I asked you who you suspected, and you tell me you voted Imiknorris for pressure. I can appreciate using your vote to get answers out of people but pretty soon the day is going to turn into night, and you should only have your vote on the person you suspect. So who is it?

Trying to figure out whether you or Orangebottle was scummier wasn't being productive - OB's claim is flawed, and you were being rather passive about it. I decided that I could cover both bases and eliminate uncertainty on my part by leaving Orangebottle alive. He'd probably get vigged, so even if I was wrong about you, my other most likely suspect would be killed as well.

Doesn't matter what role you think might be in the game. Vote who you think is scum. It's the only way to be safe.

Meanwhile, why all the waffling? To record, you voted Orangebottle, unvoted him, voted him again, then unvoted him, voted NativeForeigner, and then unvoted NativeForeigner.

Not a lot's happened that warranted such rapid changes in votes because of things they did, so the only thing that did is you. What's going on?

I give people crap for not adding to the discussion.

The same crap you agreed with not moments prior? I can understand (to a certain extent) freaking out about who is or isn't scum, since I've been there as a player. But to turn around on the people you agreed with and to suspect them for the case you abandoned a little ago?

That's... weird. I don't think I've seen anything quite like that before. If you thought a case was good up until you decided to change your mind on the spur of the moment, why are you giving people crap for having that same case?

Jim: Bizarrely timid and quiet...for Jim anyway.

Oh, for fuck's sake. I go to sleep, go to school, and then work on a bunch of homework, and then I get called bizarrely timid and quiet when I abandon you for not even all of a day.

I swear you people are spoiled by my activity.

Also, do you suspect anyone? Time's running out and you mostly just call people out on their arguments whenever they try to get aggresive.

McArathos, Jim, Orangebottle: Where do your suspicions lie?

I'm still working on it.

I'm torn about Orangebottle's claim. It just doesn't seem to add all the way up, especially concerning everything he did up to that point. But at the same time, it seems genuine.

Meanwhile I'm not getting any strong vibes out of anyone, but Urist Imiknorris is bothering me a bit. But... that's it. I'm not even getting serious gut feelings about any particular player and I'd have a hard time saying I'd feel comfortable voting anyone at this point.

We should probably extend again if we still can.

[NativeForeigner]

I'm all for an extension.

[Orangebottle]

Also, explain this (Imiknorris, pay attention to this): In this post you CLEARLY know how many scum are left, one. Because it attributes to your confusion about being roleblocked. But in this post, you try to play it off like you had no clue. You even managed to ignore the mod. Explain yourself.

Oh. That is rather important, isn't it.
See, that second post demonstrated me not knowing the maximum amount of scum left. Before the first one, you were all talking about how we were hunting the last scum, or the scum's partner. Posts like this and this(Yes. I am aware that it's Diakron's 'Bah!' post.).There's also that. I went along with it, but when I got to the confusing part I was like,"Doesn't this mean that there could be more than just one scum left?"

Finally, I wasn't ignoring the mod.

I always thought it was the opposite. That if you have a single scum left, he could only kill OR roleblock. I've people say things like,"Okay, you kill X so I can roleblock Y." in scumchats I've read before. I guess it just differs from mod to mod.

Why omit something I had wanted to say just because someone else had said it?

I'll have to answer you when I get on my computer in a bit. It's rather noisy at the moment and I can't think of a good response.

I still can't think of a reason of this beyond personal preference.
I wouldn't be against an extension, but I believe that fulfills the required votes to extend the day.

[NativeForeigner]

I see, I suppose that's plausible.

Also, by ignoring I meant "missing what he said". I probably should have said that instead.

I still can't think of a reason of this beyond personal preference.

Funny, that. It's almost like there ISN'T a reason beyond personal preference.

You've answered all of my questions to a satisfactory enough level that I'll unvote until I  get things cleared up.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Extend. I'm feeling calmer now, and maybe I can make sense of what the hell I was doing. I apologize in advance for lots and lots of words.

Jim:

Doesn't matter what role you think might be in the game. Vote who you think is scum. It's the only way to be safe.

Meanwhile, why all the waffling? To record, you voted Orangebottle, unvoted him, voted him again, then unvoted him, voted NativeForeigner, and then unvoted NativeForeigner.

Not a lot's happened that warranted such rapid changes in votes because of things they did, so the only thing that did is you. What's going on?

You're right. My vote should have stayed on Orangebottle.

As for the waffling, my first unvote was a sign of good faith, that I would be willing to at least hear what he had to say and not, as Orangebottle said, "[dismiss] it as something from the mouth of a flailing scum." Initially I believed his claim, but when I began noticing inconsistencies in it, I began pressing him on them, and eventually I became confident that he was scum when he kept insisting on an impossible scenario. Eventually the mafia counting issue led him to say this, essentially admitting that he had no way to defend against it, but not resigning himself to be lynched. That is the statement that led to me thinking he was more town than scum - he'd have to have the mental capacity of a brick to forget that there was only one scum if he was the scum. My perception of his alignment kept changing as I kept going back and forth between his flawed argument re: the presence of a SK and his "nuclear-strength brainfart" defense, which is admittedly the only defense I think he could have presented that I'd ever believe. So I decided to leave the case and focus on someone else until I could clear my thoughts on OB. That person was Native, and I freely admit that my case against him was shit, which taught me that I shouldn't be playing while stressed out (if anyone wants to know why I was stressed, feel free to ask). I unvoted him because I won't vote for someone if all I have on them is a gut feeling and uncertainty.

The same crap you agreed with not moments prior? I can understand (to a certain extent) freaking out about who is or isn't scum, since I've been there as a player. But to turn around on the people you agreed with and to suspect them for the case you abandoned a little ago?

That's... weird. I don't think I've seen anything quite like that before. If you thought a case was good up until you decided to change your mind on the spur of the moment, why are you giving people crap for having that same case?

When I see two people vote someone for the same reasons, it disturbs me because I can never be sure if the second person is voting because they agree with those reasons or if they're using those reasons to cover up a bandwagon vote. As such, I usually press the second person to elaborate on their reasons. It's mostly paranoia on my part, but this is Mafia.

Native:
Looking back, I agree that I had no real case on you. Almost all of my claims were things you had already defended yourself against, Orangebottle pointed out the mistake I was making with my meta case, and I had forgotten/not realized that by "prove you aren't scum" you probably did mean "defend yourself from these accusations and convince us that they're unjustified."

Your plan relies on the vig actually being a vig and not a SK masquerading. Were you really ready to take that chance?

Yes. I don't think we'll be able to find out one way or another until the last mafia dies, so in the meantime I might as well.

McArathos:

You know better. [times several]

I really should. I don't exactly know what the hell I was thinking myself, which is why I've shitcanned that case.

Coupled with the fact that I had a real issue with how he was attacking OB about the whole vig scenario (summarized a lot better here), I feel Urist Imiknorris thought he had a good mislynch target, did a piss-poor job of making a "unique" case on him (because apparently he believes having a similar case is a scumtell, and thus wouldn't want to make the same mistake), and is switching his focus to the allegedly lurky Native.

You seem to be forgetting that I chalked the vig case up to playstyle differences, and began focusing more on the fact that his cases relied on there being multiple scum left for some reason.

Shark:
Are you going to ask me anything to accompany your vote?

Orangebottle:

Also, explain this (Imiknorris, pay attention to this): In this post you CLEARLY know how many scum are left, one. Because it attributes to your confusion about being roleblocked. But in this post, you try to play it off like you had no clue. You even managed to ignore the mod. Explain yourself.

Oh. That is rather important, isn't it.
See, that second post demonstrated me not knowing the maximum amount of scum left. Before the first one, you were all talking about how we were hunting the last scum, or the scum's partner. Posts like this and this(Yes. I am aware that it's Diakron's 'Bah!' post.).There's also that. I went along with it, but when I got to the confusing part I was like,"Doesn't this mean that there could be more than just one scum left?"

The problem is that (as Native pointed out) your claim and insistence on an SK were based on the assumption that there was only one scum left. The "confusing part" came before that, didn't it? You were "confused" about how there could be two kills and a roleblock in the same night. If you thought there were more than one scum, you wouldn't have "promised" a town loss if you were lynched. So now we're back to the scumtell of threatening a town loss.

Also, your "defense" of your "confusion" relied on us believing this:

I honestly don't know how to answer this. If I say I forgot, I'm lying

Spoiler: In more than one way (click to show/hide)

You'd argue that I should know how many scum there are, that it's a really important number, and that no way I could've forgotten it.

. I could argue that I never read it, but that's total bullshit. Yet, I can see no other way to answer this question. All I can say at this point is: What the fuck, brain?

I believed it, realizing that it would be much easier to forget how many scum there were if you were town than if you were scum. Oh wait, those are Wine thoughts. I don't know why I believed you, given that you had just gotten past making shit up to get Jim's attention off of you before you made that roleclaim. On the other hand, I would not put it past you to try to disguise Wine. Now I know why I kept flipping between thinking you were town and scum while I was pouring shit all over Native - I got "drunk" (to continue the wine comparison) by believing you. That's clever. Die.

[Urist_McArathos]

Jim, that wasn't an accusation of lurking, just a note that you seemed less...I don't know, viciously aggressive than usual.

[Urist_McArathos]

Extend also, if we're still short on votes.