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[The13thRonin]

I like Skyrim overall but I'm a little disappointed with the lack of consequences of your actions... I never really felt like a choice was that hard to make...

A good example of a difficult choice would be if a townships corrupt guards were shaking down the townspeople for cash and you had a choice between helping the townspeople by overthrowing the guards which plunges the town into a state of anarchy with worse consequences than when the guards were around (people are murdered, chased out of town etc while law is being reestablished) or deciding to look the other way and let things continue as they have been so things will still be bad but at least anarchy is avoided and on the whole people end up better off.

[WillowLuman]

And somehow Skyrim has less choices than, say, a turn-based RPG with pregenerated characters and a railroad plot? In my opinion, it's not the mechanics, but the ability to immerse oneself in another world, to "play a role." In Skyrim, you can make characters love or hate you by how you interact with them, wipe out the Dark Brotherhood forever or help restore their old evil glory, and rearrange the jarls through the civil war (with noticeable effects within each hold.)

There's nearly no choices in Skyrim.
Stormcloack or Imperials ? Hell, it'll be the same line of quest, and in the end, guards will have a different outfit, and there'll be some jarls with different skins. You can't refuse a quest (Thief's Guild, grrrr). You can be a warrior thief wizard assasin. You can get in every guild at once. Relations with people are simplistic as hell and have nearly no influence. He'll just have a different text to read next time you talk to him. Most quests have only 1 outcome. You can't fail a quest. You can't bargain. You can't invent new ways to make a quest, or to solve a conflict. You can't make detrimental choices.

So, yeah, compared to some RPGs, Skyrim has next to no choice.

Now, you can indeed play RP (like most games), but the game won't help you. So, no, to me, it's not a RPG.

You can fail some quests in Skyrim. NPC reactions and their attitudes towards you might not have a +15 to fire damage effect, but that doesn't mean they make no difference. They don't have to have material inventory benefit / penalty to affect the world. RP'ing is helped by the choice to be a complete arse to a person and make them glare at you for the rest of the game, or choosing a side in a war (so you can RP political allegiances, patriotism, etc). It might not move mountains, but hey, it helps you RP. You don't have to get in every guild at once, you can wipe at least one of them out. You don't have to do a quest just because some random NPC asks you to. You can specialize in magic/sneaking/beefiness if you so chose, or cross-train. That is, in fact, more choice than being a mage and thus unable to heft anything more than 5 pounds, no matter your actual physique.

By the logic you've presented, sure you can chose a few lines of dialogue in other games, but all that does is play a different .bik file for the ending cutscene. Sure you can hire different RPC's, but all that does is alter the stats of your party. "Aesthetic" things, like everyone in town talking to you differently and the ruler being a different person with a different face and a different voice and a different attitude, seem like a big deal to me. All the guards wearing different uniforms is a lot more than you'd get from most games.

The one thing that stops me from doing the civil war for either side is that either Maven Black-Briar takes over Riften legally, or that creep Silverblood does so for Markarth. I'd call that encouraging RP'ing.

[PanH]

You can fail some quests in Skyrim.

I'm curious about some examples, because I just remember the first Thief quest, where the outcome doesn't matter, he'll still welcome you in the guild (though I've not tested them all to see which are failable or not).

NPC reactions and their attitudes towards you might not have a +15 to fire damage effect, but that doesn't mean they make no difference. They don't have to have material inventory benefit / penalty to affect the world. RP'ing is helped by the choice to be a complete arse to a person and make them glare at you for the rest of the game, or choosing a side in a war (so you can RP political allegiances, patriotism, etc). It might not move mountains, but hey, it helps you RP.

There's no relationships between NPCs. Helping someone won't make me friend with his friend. Helping his enemy won't make me his enemy. Being a stormcloak won't make me at least a little bit hostile with Empire supporters.
If I steal someone, get caught, there'll be no consequence with that person. He'll be as friendly as ever.
If I help people, I'll not be particularly known as a do-gooder,  no more that I'll be known as a bandit if I raid a hold and then go to another one. Imperial guards could despise me if I'm known as a thief, companions could think I'm a feeble mage if I'm part of the College (but maybe still accepting me if I prove myself). That's what helps RP way more.
I'm a fervent Empire supporter and I helped them a lot ? Others Empire supporters will be my friend, get me discount if I go shop to them, tell me their secrets, give me quests, and so on. When I defend Whiterun, people would like me after that, I protected their home. But when conquering Winterhelm, people would still be hostile, I defeated their leader, and attacked their town. On the other hand, Stormcloack supporters would hate me, refuse to trade with me, don't give me quest, etc.

You don't have to get in every guild at once, you can wipe at least one of them out. You don't have to do a quest just because some random NPC asks you to.

In Skyrim, I can be both an Imperial guard, and help the old woman to free his son from Imperials. The quest doesn't give me any other choice. I can't tell her that her son was rightfully imprisonned or that he was a traitor. I can't tell her that he died (lie).
There's so many times where your character can't say no. It's just "Not for now, but repeat me that everytime I asks you".
The worst part is that the main quest where I have to become part of the Thief guild. My character isn't a thief, but because I have to for the sake of saving the world, he'll get in the guild. I wish there was an option to tell "No thanks, I'm not a thief, however, how about you give me that information against x gold, or that I do something else ?" The game is litteraly forcing my character to try to be a thief and get in the guild.

You can specialize in magic/sneaking/beefiness if you so chose, or cross-train. That is, in fact, more choice than being a mage and thus unable to heft anything more than 5 pounds, no matter your actual physique.

There's a difference between being able to specialize in a few skills or being medium to lots of skill and just do perfectly everything in every category. For example, in Morrowind, I could be a mage with heavy armor, but in that case, maybe there's some magic skill I wouldn't know much about. Or maybe a warrior that knew how to lockpick, but barely to repair his armor.

And the weight system is nearly the same, but with stamina instead of force/endurance.

By the logic you've presented, sure you can chose a few lines of dialogue in other games, but all that does is play a different .bik file for the ending cutscene. Sure you can hire different RPC's, but all that does is alter the stats of your party. "Aesthetic" things, like everyone in town talking to you differently and the ruler being a different person with a different face and a different voice and a different attitude, seem like a big deal to me. All the guards wearing different uniforms is a lot more than you'd get from most games.

So be it. You prefer eye candy, while I prefer consequences for a RPG.

[alexandertnt]

I was OK with the removal of the "relationships" with NPC's. In earlier games (particularly Morrowind. *sells 50 forks one by one*) it was quite broken and quirky and did not really contribute anything to the game IMO except the funny faces that people could make in Oblivion near the extremes (like/dislike).

I do wish that Skyrim (or any of the TES games for that matter) would reconise your character more. Even just an occasional dialogue reference to your class/race/significant-achievements would be nice.

I remember early in Morrowind in Vivec City that guy in the bar who hates Argonians (I can not remeber many of the specifics - it was quite some time ago). His dialogue will not change even if you are an Argonian, despite the fact that it really should have changed. Stuff like that really gives the feeling that the world and the characters are static and fake. (Vivec City itself looks cool though )

[Ivefan]

"Aesthetic" things, like everyone in town talking to you differently and the ruler being a different person with a different face and a different voice and a different attitude, seem like a big deal to me. All the guards wearing different uniforms is a lot more than you'd get from most games.

Except that in skyrim it does not really make a difference. It might assist your self imposed roleplaying. But in my opinion, when I play a RPG, I shouldn't be the one fantasizing things together because if that were the case, then i could go claim that GTA is a RPG because i role play in it(I don't).
Skyrim is not completely lacking consequences, but there's not many that makes a difference.
You say that the "aesthetic" changes when the ruler of a town changes is a big deal. It does not change anything for the player, theres a different voice actor saying the same things. Theres no change for the inhabitants as they go on doing the same things as before.
It's not a upset to the world order, it's just refurnishing the room.

Skyrim is like a big amusement park, where the only choice is which rides you're going to ride or not, because the ride goes on rails.

Disclaimer; Dialogues(monologues?) and quests are shit, and after the first playthrough I didn't bother with them unless it gave me some reward i wanted.

[Spitfire]

A new screenshot of my Skyrim character, Laenaya. This one came out rather good I think, and shows her whole outfit.

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/Images/207520

Cool, she looks like she can kick ass; but damn she has to eat more!

[Solifuge]

With the current discussion on choices and Skyrim as an RPG versus a hack-and-slash adventure, I thought my old rant was relevant. It's a bit lengthy, but the experience I sum up in it conveys my feelings on the matter.

I enter town (Solitude), and I see a crowd gathering in front of a platform. I know something is going on, though I had no idea what. Was this scripted, or something organic? I reflect on how cool it would be if you could just walk in on events like this, and find myself a barrel to stand on to see over the crowd. Turns out it's a public execution of a Stormcloak sympathizer... oh boy! I decided I'd put a stop to it, since I'd more or less been supporting the Stormcloaks cause... though they offered no game mechanics that really let me do that, I'd just been role-playing my alchemist/archer character as an ally to them, after being stiffly dicked over by the Imperials during the opening.

Anyway, I see the headsman, 2 Imperial officers, and the Stormcloak member on the platform, and take stock of my inventory. I find a few bottles of home-brewed Paralysis Poison... though it's usually way more efficient to just stack damage effect after damage effect in the game (killing is pretty much the #1 method of plot advancement), I kept them around, just in case I could do something cool like this! I poison my arrows and the daggers with the stuff, and after they finish their execution spiel and the headsman readies his axe, I peg him with the poison, and he falls like a rock. Leaping from the barrel and to stage, I pull out the poisoned daggers and hit the first, and then the second officer too. They fall, the crowd panics, and the Stormcloak Rebel and me see an opening, and make a break for it! It feels great... I just reacted naturally to the circumstances, and finally got a chance to think outside the box to solve a conflict, which I'd really been missing in this game so far!

I follow the rebel until we are safe, hoping to talk to him once he calms down. He ascends a staircase and finally pauses, and I move closer to talk to him, figure out what he knows, and maybe make a plan to escape. Before I can start a conversation, he promptly says Generic NPC Greeting #12... and then falls over dead for no reason. Apparently, his death was a linearly scripted event, to start you off on yet another fetch-quest involving his grieving widow. They hadn't considered I would do anything but sit and watch him die like a good cutscene-viewer, and then start their fetch-quest by looting the beheaded corpse the Imperials inexplicably left on stage.

Spoiler: Skyrim Rant Continued (click to show/hide)

Near every plot and quest forces you to make one specific "decision" to advance it. You join the Companions (Read: Fighters Guild), and they don't even consider that you wouldn't want to be a Werewolf; there is no option to say "Thanks, but no thanks guys," and continue down that questline, do more menial missions for the Guild, or even refuse and leave the Guild! They just sit in their damned secret cave over a bowl of wolf blood, waiting for the day you decide to come back and take a swig.

On top of that, the quests that don't force you into one choice (or rarely one of 2 choices) involve blitzing into some place and killing something... and even on the hardest setting this requires little more than hammering my mouse buttons. Other times you get a quest to go from where you are to someplace else, and either deliver/retrieving some item. There's no need for planning, finding creative ways to tackle problems, or anything like that... just walk, click a few times, walk more, click more, etc.

The environments are pretty, and can be really immersive... but after seeing 2 caves, 2 mountains, 2 plains, and 2 forests they start to blend together and get boring. The alternative is fast-travel teleporting around, which reduces the game to a series of dialogue options, clicks to stab things, rinse, dry, repeat. The whole game is like that... it's not about making choices, or exercising your brain and your character's body of skills to find your own way to tackle difficult scenarios. You're just expected to make this one "choice" and watch their game unfold. Rather than feeling like I'm discovering and telling my own story using the game as a medium, it's like I'm watching "Elder Scrolls: The Movie", where I have to push some buttons to advance a linear plot.

I don't know... as someone who grew up with the Elder Scrolls series, this has pretty much been another steady step away from everything I enjoyed about the series, and diminishes the gameplay in every way but NPC interaction and combat... and even that has arbitrary restrictions on things like blocking to play better on a console, and forces these immersion-breaking KILL-CAM cutscenes on me like I was playing Call Of Duty, or just beat a boss in Final Fantasy.

Rather than code a decent AI that can deal with players jumping to inaccessible locations and shooting them with spells or arrows (say, by pulling out or *gasp* seeking a bow of their own), they decide to remove any meaningful jumping ability. Where once we had a rich set of stats to customize our characters to be faster, stronger, more nimble, better spellcasters, or whatever... now we get points we can pump into either Hit Points and Mana (or if we hate ourselves and want to ruin our ability to beat any late-game enemies, Stamina).  The diverse series of magical effects like Levitation, Water-Walking or Breathing, Life Detection, Teleportation, and so on... once necessary to take on certain foes, solve certain puzzles, and reach certain areas, have been marginalized or completely scrapped in favor of More Ways To Make Bad Guys Die.

[MaximumZero]

A new screenshot of my Skyrim character, Laenaya. This one came out rather good I think, and shows her whole outfit.

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/Images/207520

Cool, she looks like she can kick ass; but damn she has to eat more!

Also, possibly wear armor. The halter-top/skirt combo is not terribly effective at stopping pointy things, in my experience.

[Solifuge]

A new screenshot of my Skyrim character, Laenaya. This one came out rather good I think, and shows her whole outfit.

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/Images/207520

Cool, she looks like she can kick ass; but damn she has to eat more!

Also, possibly wear armor. The halter-top/skirt combo is not terribly effective at stopping pointy things, in my experience.

Dude, Max, she's clearly a scientist. Currently, she's running a case study on how varying degrees of nudity can repel objects, sorted by mass, force, and sharpness. And also about the rate of environmental heat-loss via exposed boobs and midriff in a sub-arctic environment.

It's complex stuff, so I can understand and forgive your confusion.

[MaximumZero]

A new screenshot of my Skyrim character, Laenaya. This one came out rather good I think, and shows her whole outfit.

http://skyrim.nexusmods.com/Images/207520

Cool, she looks like she can kick ass; but damn she has to eat more!

Also, possibly wear armor. The halter-top/skirt combo is not terribly effective at stopping pointy things, in my experience.

Dude, Max, she's clearly a scientist. Currently, she's running a case study on how varying degrees of nudity can repel objects, sorted by mass, force, and sharpness. And also about the rate of environmental heat-loss via exposed boobs and midriff in a sub-arctic environment.

It's complex stuff, so I can understand and forgive your confusion.

Are you insinuating that I don't understand anything more complicated than a fist in the jaw, good ser? Well, I say to you, "Skyrim belongs to da Norts!" I'd then probably be set on fire by you, damned thaumaturge that you are.

[Spitfire]

Well, I say to you, "Skyrim belongs to da Norts!"

PAH! *humms*

Down with Ulfric
The killer of kings
On the day of your death
we'll drink and we'll sing.

[Ultimuh]

Well, I say to you, "Skyrim belongs to da Norts!"

PAH! *humms*

Down with Ulfric
The killer of kings
On the day of your death
we'll drink and we'll sing.

When the empire and stormcloaks have destroyed eachother, The Forsworn will retake their lands!

[Solifuge]

Ah, y'all can just bide your time until Dagoth Ur revives, and the 6th House rises once more. Ain't no Jarl or Emperor alive that stands a chance against a giant brass god.

[Soadreqm]

And now Fallout is a FPS, and the kids are whining about guns not being flawlessly accurate? Bah! Get off my lawn!

Kid? I've been playing Fallout since 2, and if you think having to use VATS instead of actually being able to hit the things you're aiming at is fun, ok, but pleast don't talk down to me as if I'm new the to series because I didn't. Actually, I just checked and I'm older than you.

Sorry. I didn't mean to sound condescending. Basically, what I was saying there is that the old RPGs were better. The RPGs were better and the Scotsmen more true. And saying that makes me feel hella old.

And the thing is, there are a lot of variables that need to be taken account of. A long prepared shot from the shadows in an attempt to assassinate the target isn't going to be as inaccurate as one fired in the heat of battle when you're being fired upon as well. The game isn't going to take that into account and it isn't fun in any sense when it doesn't. It does, however, take into account your ability to perform sneak attacks, and you can get more damaging ones as you level, which is good.

Why isn't the game going to take that into account, though? It could take that into account. First-person shooters have been doing that since forever. Moving or shooting makes the next shot less accurate, and staying still and pointing at the target makes the shot more accurate, which is communicated to the player visually with an expanding and contracting targeting reticle. Skyrim doesn't have that, but there's no reason why it couldn't.

Fallout 2 is not a first person action RPG, it is a third person turn-based RPG. So are most roguelikes. What is acceptable in one style of game (one that lets you plan your actions allowing you to perform well and compensate for the whims of the RNG) isn't necessarily fun in the other (one which relies heavily on player skill and reaction). I have no problems with an RNG or for misses, but I do have problems when they happen real-time.

See, I've never really thought of it as annoying. There are limits to how accurately you can aim a firearm, let alone a bow, and if I miss a shot, I think of that as less "screwed by the RNG" and more "failed to account for the inherent limitations of my weapon". It's the same kind of thing as, I don't know, hammers being sort of slow to swing. If an enemy, in a moment of AI brilliance, manages to scamper away from under my hammer, that's my fault. Not the hammer's.

As said, I haven't played the new Fallout games, and maybe they somehow fucked it up in those. How does it work? I can't remember ever being annoyed by bullet spread in a FPS.

[Vendayn]

rofl, I just got banned on Nexus

Because I put up screenshots (that showed no nudity or barely any skin at all, there are WAY worse screenshots on there) of the Monli race found on Loverslab. The reason? My character was "too young" to be up on Nexus. So my entire screenshot collection was removed and I was banned.

I went to chat on an alt account and the moderator or admin or whoever just laughed and banned me again.

That is rather annoying, but I'll probably laugh later.

(edit: You can see all the screenshots to Laenaya in the last few pages don't work anymore.)

And these are the screenshots that got me banned:

http://imgur.com/a/GDzwJ#0

Well, guess they really do hate loverslab lol.

At least I have a dynamic IP, I can just make a new account. I just won't put up pictures or do anything on there, except download stuff.