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Author Topic: The debt ceilling  (Read 40214 times)

Bauglir

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Re: The debt ceilling
« Reply #480 on: August 05, 2011, 11:49:24 am »

No, that's just MSNBC.
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darkrider2

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Re: The debt ceilling
« Reply #481 on: August 05, 2011, 12:08:24 pm »

I for one, support throwing grandmothers off cliffs. *hurl*
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nenjin

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Re: The debt ceilling
« Reply #482 on: August 05, 2011, 03:50:30 pm »

Some poll numbers on voter opinions of Congress.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/08/04/poll-no-one-wins-in-debt-ceiling-deal/

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A CBS News/New York Times poll released Thursday revealed that eight in 10 Americans say they disapprove of how Congress is handling its job – the highest number in the poll's history since 1977.

A CNN/ORC International poll released Tuesday echoes the nation's displeasure with congressional leaders. Eighty-four percent of the nation disapproved of the way Congress is handling its job in the poll; only 14 percent approved.

But the country is split over how the president is handling his responsibilities in the White House. Forty-eight percent said they approve of how President Barack Obama is handling his job and 47 percent disapprove in the CBS News/New York Times survey.

When it comes to the debt-ceiling negotiations, 66 percent said they disapprove of how Democrats handled the talks and more – 72 percent – said they disapprove of the way Republicans negotiated to broker the deal.

The nation may be split over how it views the president's role in debt negotiations – almost half both approve and disapprove of how he handled the talks – but it's clear most agree that all of the players were more interested in gaining an upper hand.

Eight in 10 believe the debt disagreement was mostly about gaining political advantage while a minority – 14 percent – say it was about doing what's best for the country.

While no one walked away from the debt debate unscathed, opinions of the GOP took a slightly bigger hit. Half say Republicans in Congress compromised "too little" during negotiations, compared with Democrats: roughly one-third say they compromised the right amount or too little and 26 percent say they compromised too much.

Republicans are also more to blame for the budget standoff in the survey – 47 to 29 percent – over the president and Democrats in Congress.

The poll indicates that it's difficult for everyone to be pleased with the debt-ceiling deal. The country is split with the outcome since 46 percent approve of the agreement and 45 percent disapprove.
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Leafsnail

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Re: The debt ceilling
« Reply #483 on: August 05, 2011, 04:28:43 pm »

Someone suggested that the republicans pick the democrat members and the democrats pick the republican members. Interesting idea, but will never happen
Wouldn't this massively favour the Republicans, considering that they have infinitely better slavish following of the party line party unity than the Democrats?
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nenjin

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Re: The debt ceilling
« Reply #484 on: August 05, 2011, 04:52:28 pm »

I'd assume the factionalism among democrats would only prevent them from unifying their own proposals, it wouldn't stop them from deadlocking any Republican proposals that were too egregious. And it still goes to an up and down vote to both houses after that. Democrats are just as likely to put 3 people in the committee that work well together as they are putting 3 people from different factions in there. I think the Republicans are in just as much danger of factionalism in the committee, because they'll likely to have to give a seat to one of the Tea Party supporters, if not members.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: The debt ceilling
« Reply #485 on: August 05, 2011, 05:01:50 pm »

The Republicans may seem more unified, but in reality they are just as riddled with factionalism as the Democrats. Despite the size of the Tea Party bloc, quite a few Republicans consider them radicals, and, while they put on a public face of unity, the Tea Party amounts almost to an unofficial third party.
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Dsarker

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Re: The debt ceilling
« Reply #486 on: August 05, 2011, 05:31:56 pm »

Not sure if I understand US political system. Is there only allowed to be two parties?
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Lord Shonus

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Re: The debt ceilling
« Reply #487 on: August 05, 2011, 05:33:17 pm »

No, it just almost always works out that way.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: The debt ceilling
« Reply #488 on: August 05, 2011, 05:44:01 pm »

For numerical and political reasons, there are only two parties. But in there are people in each party that are NOT representative of the parties as a whole. There's nothing about parties built into the system at all, actually, a two party system is just naturally emergent from our election mechanics.
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nenjin

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Re: The debt ceilling
« Reply #489 on: August 05, 2011, 05:55:39 pm »

Well the roots of parties were based around our two competing ideas about government when the US was created. (Federalists vs. State's Rights.) Over time, more political ideals have gotten attached to both party platforms, and they've even exchanged some political philosophies in the past.

We have other parties in the US (The Libertarian Party, the Green Party, the Independent Party), but I don't think any of them have ever garnered more than 10% of the national vote. The Republican and Democrat parties appeal to broad swaths of the American public and their ideals. The independents tend to focus narrowly (and usually on the fringe) on certain issues like the economy, the environment, ect....And so they tend to run on only one or two of the big issues people care about. That's a platform with only two legs.

The Independent party is literally the party of "so fucking sick of this shit I'm an independent." You'd think the Independent Party would be stronger these days, but no. Without any platform other than "sick of this shit", no one can really vote for them except on a candidate by candidate basis. They're a party with one leg for a platform. And anyone with that good a chance to win never left the two dominant parties to begin with.

The 3rd parties also don't have these vast, national fund-raising and campaigning organizations to back them. They don't get a meaningful share of all the political contributions that businesses and voters give to the two major parties, they don't get the support or endorsement of serious celebrities or influential people. They can't afford the media blitzkrieg of ads that the other two parties can pay for. In terms of what's required to be relevant in American politics, the 3rd parties have almost nothing going for them, least of all the public's attention.

Voting for the "3rd parties" in America is usually considered throwing your vote away, because it's one less vote for either of the two parties at the end of the day.

We essentially have a parliamentary system where only two parties ever have a chance of succeeding. Which is why we get political deadlock so often. In parliamentary systems government is ruled by a coalition of multiple parties. It requires compromise for government to even function.

Our system tends more towards establishing dominant political control for one party, while the other takes an obstructionist position (and claims they're saving America by doing so, so they can get elected to Congress/Presidency/Governors of States in the next set of elections.) Compromise isn't necessary all the time (in fact only when Americans have elected a split House and/or Senate), and much of what goes on is motivated by increasing the political control and favor of one party and decreasing them for the other. It often has less to do with the actual legislation/topic/investigation/appointment/war/ect...under debate than it has to do with scoring points with voters for the next election. U.S. presidential elections aren't even until late 2012, and the U.S media has literally not shut up about them since late 2009 talking about who is going to run, and what something that happens today means for an election a fucking year from now, if that gives you any indication how dysfunctional we are politically. And if they're not harping on presidential elections (which Americans care a lot about, relatively speaking) early, there's the Congressional elections between every presidential election (which most Americans care a great deal less about.) It's a constant cycle of jockeying for advantage, and the issues are playing pieces.

And so we also get a good amount of factionalism within each party, usually more in the party that doesn't control government.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2011, 06:24:29 pm by nenjin »
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counting

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Re: The debt ceilling
« Reply #490 on: August 05, 2011, 06:18:31 pm »

The experimentalist in me right now, so wish to build a model and run simulations to see if a initial system with each candidate is his/her own party will eventually evolved into 2 parties system. How often will it emerges, and will 3 parties be stable? or more?
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PyroDesu

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Re: The debt ceilling
« Reply #491 on: August 05, 2011, 06:21:27 pm »


The Independent party is literally the party of "so fucking sick of this shit I'm an independent." You'd think the independent party would be stronger these days, but no. Without any platform other "sick of this shit", no one can really vote for them except on a candidate by candidate basis. They're a party with one leg for a platform.

And a crippled leg at that.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: The debt ceilling
« Reply #492 on: August 05, 2011, 06:26:35 pm »

Quote
The experimentalist in me right now, so wish to build a model and run simulations to see if a initial system with each candidate is his/her own party will eventually evolved into 2 parties system. How often will it emerges, and will 3 parties be stable? or more?

Using a first past the post election system that means only the leading two candidates have a chance of winning, and other options cannot be considered because that helps the OTHER guy, yes. You will eventually get two major parties. Those parties will have major regional variations if you've got a society that is very splintered by region, but for logistical and practical reasons, you will only have the two.
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nenjin

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Re: The debt ceilling
« Reply #493 on: August 05, 2011, 06:27:54 pm »

And it should also be mentioned, if you're not familiar with American politics, when we talk about "the Tea Party." They're actually part of the Republican party, wing of it. They're not an official party like The Republican, Democrat, Independent, ect.. parties. But they're name is indicative of how they see themselves, and why they've caused so much trouble for the power that be during the debt ceiling crisis.
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Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Lord Shonus

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Re: The debt ceilling
« Reply #494 on: August 05, 2011, 06:50:22 pm »

To put it more simply, the Tea Party represents the most extreme ideals of the Republican Party, much like the Green Party and Socialist Party represent some of the ideals of the Democrats taken to the utmost extremes. While the Democrats have pretty much rejected their more extreme elements to appeal to a more centrist population base, making the Greens and Socialists their own independent parties, the Republicans have embraced the more radical Tea Party in an effort to solidify the support of the Party faithful.
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