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[Andir]

How is it even relevant that they're paid with tax money? Government employees still need to protect their interests and make sure they're treated fairly.

Civil service tends to offer protection and fair payment as part of the job. Likewise, a union really can't argue with the taxpayers about anything. If the taxpayers feel that a job isn't worth as much as a person is being payed, or that it even needs to exist having a union of government employees go against the taxpayers (aka the constituents) is pretty silly in any democratic government, as it would be the minority trying to impress its will on the majority.

Granted, a union could raise it's concerns civilly, and if there is an issue, raise public awareness, but that falls under persuading the taxpayers, not being opposed to them.

The tax payers provide the money for the wages, but they neither set the wages of nor pay the government employees; the higher ups in the organisation does that. And like in any other organisation they'd be perfectly happy to pay less wages if they could get away with it. The only thing stopping them would be the ability to organise unions and demand fair treatment.

The problem with unions (IMHO) is that demand is sometimes too strong.  Maybe if we had multiple unions that could compete with each other for fairness in the workplace... then the balances could be fair.

[Leafsnail]

You still have to prove causation there. Nonetheless, the number of incidents where people felt that guns have saved a life still outnumber the firearm homicide numbers, if not all violent crime numbers, iirc.

Reaaaaaaally?  Because I'd have to seriously question any study that said the second statement.  It would imply that the US would be basically the worst country in the world for attempted murders (as in, 500 attempted murders per 100,000 population - in other words, if you didn't own a gun in America, you'd have a 1 in 200 chance of being murdered every year).

I guess the first statement is a little more plausible, although it'd still imply that the US has 4x as many attempted murders than European countries (per capita), which would again be awful.

The problem with unions (IMHO) is that demand is sometimes too strong.  Maybe if we had multiple unions that could compete with each other for fairness in the workplace... then the balances could be fair.

There are multiple unions in plenty of sectors here.  They compete with each other to provide the best conditions - in other words, they make unions as a whole stronger rather than weaker, which I'm not sure is what you're hoping to do.

[Nadaka]

Unions remain useful because there are whole generations that are completely ignorant of the horrific conditions that have been imposed on working people for the profit of the wealthy, the millions who died from those conditions and the thousands who were murdered for fighting for the right to earn a living wage free from being poisoned to death. Right now, there is a very strong right wing movement to do away with all that progress. To remove OSHA, the EPA, labor rights, restrictions on child labor, etc. Unions would only be outdated if there was no one actively campaigning to return the majority to serfdom and repeal the quality of life that they have won for the average working person.

[Andir]

The problem with unions (IMHO) is that demand is sometimes too strong.  Maybe if we had multiple unions that could compete with each other for fairness in the workplace... then the balances could be fair.

There are multiple unions in plenty of sectors here.  They compete with each other to provide the best conditions - in other words, they make unions as a whole stronger rather than weaker, which I'm not sure is what you're hoping to do.

Er, not really.  I mean, if the Auto Workers union can't work with the company, the company could go to Auto Workers Union 2 and bring in their employees while laying off the workers who cling to the union that just doesn't work with the company.  If both unions can't decide on fair grounds, the company will have to go into shutdown and lose money because they can't decide on one of the two.

Right now, unions have too much bargaining power and we have Joe Lazyass riding around on an electric cart making $80K/year plus overtime because he only does work when he's making overtime.  The first 40 hours he decided that he doesn't want to do any of the required work and saves it until the last half of the week then crams all his work in during overtime.  (Yes, I know of a person that does this on a regular basis.  They can't fire him because he files a grievance and gets put back on duty [at higher pay.])  He's told me he does this on a regular basis and now he has his other co-workers doing the same... because they feel as though they deserve the pay and "screw the man".

[Nadaka]

Andir, that would very much be an example of an individual illegally abusing the system. For every one of those there are plenty of cases of people being abused and used by their employer in a similarly illegal manner. The answer isn't to remove unions or weaken them, it is to hold those individuals accountable for their actions.

[Andir]

Andir, that would very much be an example of an individual illegally abusing the system. For every one of those there are plenty of cases of people being abused and used by their employer in a similarly illegal manner. The answer isn't to remove unions or weaken them, it is to hold those individuals accountable for their actions.

Yeah, well... good luck.  Union employees and their steak dinner fed union "bosses" stick to each other because somehow people have it in their head that the CEO got paid 1.3 Million in bonuses so the company can afford to pay them what they want.

[Bauglir]

What does steak dinner have to do with anything? Steak is pretty cheap, y'know, if you go for the right cuts. Chuck is only slightly more expensive than hamburger, for instance, and cooks to a pretty decent texture and tenderness.

[Andir]

What does steak dinner have to do with anything? Steak is pretty cheap, y'know, if you go for the right cuts. Chuck is only slightly more expensive than hamburger, for instance, and cooks to a pretty decent texture and tenderness.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure_of_speech

[Bauglir]

Well, I'll be more direct, then. You're including needless insults in an attempt to make appeals to emotion that are going to do nothing more than alienate the people talking to you. I know that occasionally people do the same when discussing conservatives, which is equally wrong (and I apologize for not bringing it up before now), but right now your argument seems to be solely based on not liking abuses of the system. Which is great, I'm right with you on that, but at the same time I can assure you that your view of unions is painfully oversimplified. At the most charitable to you, you're taking the worst examples of abuse and calling them the entire system.

EDIT: The biggest problems with unions are when they start emulating private corporations in how they pay their executives and how they treat their members, which are the things you're taking issue with.

[Andir]

Both unions I've been directly or indirectly involved with have been one massively corrupt system.  I was in a union when I was in college working at a Meijer store [don't remember which union] and during my time at UPS [Teamsters], management was strictly forbidden to discuss how the union was raping them... Had to put on a smile and say: "The union is good for us!"  Even though we saw how corrupt and ugly things really are.  Heck, I don't even know what the union did for me at Meijer except take money from my paycheck.  I never once saw anyone from the union, nor was I asked about anything I did from the union.  (How were they supposed to know what the work environment was like?)  I found more times than not, working with the management in the store led to better raises and treatment.  The part that pissed me off the most was that I couldn't leave the union and work there.  It should be an option.

Luckily, I work in the IT sector now and don't have to worry about unions anymore and hopefully for the future.  I argue/work for my own salary, and if someone is wholly unqualified for the position, they are quickly "found out".

[Willfor]

management was strictly forbidden to discuss how the union was raping them...

Could you please refrain from comparing being given an unfavorable financial condition to sexual assault? Thank you.

[Andir]

management was strictly forbidden to discuss how the union was raping them...

Could you please refrain from comparing being given an unfavorable financial condition to sexual assault? Thank you.

Rape is not only sexual in nature.  It also implies taking by force.

Edit: in fact:  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape  See #7

[Bauglir]

... Let's skip the next 5 pages and agree that dictionaries aren't going to help anyone at all in this argument, okay? Have they ever, at any point in any thread in this forum, actually been useful in convincing somebody? I'm not going to touch the actual argument at hand.

At any rate, private unions may be different. I've only had experience with a public union which, as far as I can tell, is more or less straightforward about how it operates and doesn't pull shit like mandatory membership (you have to opt into that specifically for them to take money out of your paycheck) or strikes in vital infrastructure (traded away the ability to strike in exchange for some other right; I don't know the specifics, but given that I work in a hospital I'm pretty on board with not being able to be asked to participate in a strike).

[Frumple]

Also guideline four in the OP. Just don't use that analogy in this thread, hokay?

[Andir]

... Let's skip the next 5 pages and agree that dictionaries aren't going to help anyone at all in this argument, okay?

Fine then... no more dictionary definitions for any word used.  Let's just make up whatever meaning we want.