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[Jackrabbit]

I... don't get what you're saying. Are you saying because it's so common, it is part of our culture? Because if so, that's fucking ridiculous. Rape is completely socially unacceptable, nobody advocates it except rapists.

If not I don't get why you brought it up.

The point is if rape was completely unacceptable then there wouldn't be those statistics, there would only be scattered cases of rape quickly cracked down upon because the only ones who would rape would be those who were truly sick and unable to stop themselves or unable to care.

What. No. Murder is completely unacceptable, and there are still murders. People who rape are truly sick, unable to stop themselves or unable to care. Rape is completely unacceptable, I don't see how you could possibly dispute that. Just because it's completely unacceptable doesn't mean that there won't be elements who do it. Just that they're, well, you know. Criminals. Monsters, even.

[Siquo]

Well to be fair, my broad generalization of your X does evil things works with just about anything

I... am unsure about what your point is? You being sexist pisses people off? Yes, yes it does.

[ChairmanPoo]

Anti-male sounds like an extreme point of view, and there's nothing good about that. Anti-particular males, I can see, but anti-male, well, I don't think anyone here's advocating that.

Um, actually, the entire debate started with me lamenting about feminism containing two subsets I don't like, one of them being the anti-male, and Virex responded that he has no problem with anti-male discrimination. So, not necessarily "advocating", but at least "approval" is present in this thread.

And Realmfighter... the "one in six" argument is flawed. First, I haven't seen any statistical data about it yet, so you could just be making it up. Secondly, it has no bearing to culture whatsoever - we have relatively many drunken stabbings here in Finland but they are not culturally acceptable. So try harder.

And yes, labeling people and cultures evil is discrimination.

I think Vector was the first to bring that statistic up. Apparently it's based on the number of cases reported at police stations. The reasoning behind that was that if they used the actual number of rape condemnations, they might be missing out real rapes which did not end up with a guilty sentence.

The problem with this approach is that it makes false positives much more likely, though. All in all I think it's a dubious statistic.

Does anyone have sources on this, or, alternatively, in other rape-measuring studies? It would be interesting to know...

EDIT: more sources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_in_the_United_States#Rape_statistics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_statistics

according to the first link, the prevalence would be around 1 in 5, which indeed, is astonishingly high...

[Bauglir]

And is it wrong because there are men, or is it wrong because there are people who do wrong things, who happen to also be men?

It's wrong because there are men and women who accept wrongness as right

Great, so there's no reason to be accusing men as a whole of being evil, and we can get back to accusing people who are evil of being evil.

[Jackrabbit]

It's actually incredibly difficult to measure rapes, because a lot of women unfortunately don't come forward. It's a lot like domestic abuse, in that aspect.

[Realmfighter]

What. No. Murder is completely unacceptable, and there are still murders. People who rape are truly sick, unable to stop themselves or unable to care. Rape is completely unacceptable, I don't see how you could possibly dispute that. Just because it's completely unacceptable doesn't mean that there won't be elements who do it. Just that they're, well, you know. Criminals. Monsters, even.

Oh, I'm not debating that rape is completely unacceptable (And I am including in the definition of rape not only rape by force but every other type of sexual assault included in the 1/6 statistic, all of which I will assume you also consider Unacceptable) I am saying that if it was in the same realm as murder then the number of people in America's prisons would be a lot higher then 1% of their population.

Does anyone have sources on this, or, alternatively, in other rape-measuring studies? It would be interesting to know...

It's basically impossible to measure accurately, with false positives and rapes going unreported.

It's actually incredibly difficult to measure rapes, because a lot of women unfortunately don't come forward. It's a lot like domestic abuse, in that aspect.

This basically.

[Kay12]

Western culture? Rape is against our culture. That's why it's a punishable offense.

Before I respond to everything else, one in six. Just sayin'.

I... don't get what you're saying. Are you saying because it's so common, it is part of our culture? Because if so, that's fucking ridiculous. Rape is completely socially unacceptable, nobody advocates it except rapists.

Not even all rapists. Especially if the urge to rape was caused by a mental condition, the culprit may feel extremely remorseful - and for a reason, as rape is one of the most severe crimes in our culture.

But I get your point. While I'm not sure if one in six is the valid number, it's probably so because of failed social policy, not because rape is culturally acceptable.

I... don't get what you're saying. Are you saying because it's so common, it is part of our culture? Because if so, that's fucking ridiculous. Rape is completely socially unacceptable, nobody advocates it except rapists.

If not I don't get why you brought it up.

The point is if rape was completely unacceptable then there wouldn't be those statistics, there would only be scattered cases of rape quickly cracked down upon because the only ones who would rape would be those who were truly sick and unable to stop themselves or unable to care.

You can't force culture to change, I'm afraid. Rape is already considered to be among the worst crimes there is. The reasons people do it are manifold, but very few cases in Western cultures have to do with it being acceptable. Culturally acceptable rapes may occur within certain sub-cultures, such as corrective rape to "cure" homosexuals, but I haven't heard anyone outside those subcultures accept them.

Also, as far as I know United States registers all sex offenders. By statistics I found the amount of sex offenders is a bit under 400 000, which is a bit over a single per mil of US population. Not nearly enough to brand all males as rapists. Also, about 60% of the male survivors sampled report at least one of their perpetrators to be female.

So, I have a recommendation and a request.
Be careful.
Don't discriminate.


However, the entire rape discussion is an uninteresting spin-off in my opinion, because I think everybody agrees that rape is condemnable and therefore shouldn't require much discussion. I was trying to find out why female-on-male hate speech is tolerated more than male-on-female hate speech. If someone has a decent answer, let's hear it.

[Gamerlord]

a) Because women are perceived as victims.

b) How many times has thread discussed rape? I think it's at least three time now.

[Bauglir]

However, the entire rape discussion is an uninteresting spin-off in my opinion, because I think everybody agrees that rape is condemnable and therefore shouldn't require much discussion. I was trying to find out why female-on-male hate speech is tolerated more than male-on-female hate speech. If someone has a decent answer, let's hear it.

The answer, I suspect, is pretty standard. It's a common trend to jump on disliking something without understanding why it's a problem, simply because people around you and people you respect dislike it. By "understanding", I mean internalizing the reasoning behind your position well enough that you can apply it to situations that aren't obviously similar. So people you know to be awesome speak out against misogyny and make convincing arguments that demonstrate why misogyny is bad, well, it's obvious that misogyny is terrible, but you don't hear as many speaking out against misandry (because it is, in my experience, genuinely less of a problem in terms of scope and severity; it's just not no problem), and a lot of the times that you do see it crop up, it's shortsighted or malicious people defending their privilege. So it seems reasonable to conclude that misandry isn't really a problem, and people who try to argue that it is are trying to sneakily defend the status quo.

Plus, it also seems common to justify attacks on some group by pointing out the harm that members of that group have done, even if the members you're targeting haven't actually done any of that harm, or that the attacks you make are insignificant compared to the harm you've suffered or the group you defend has suffered.

[Kay12]

Indeed, misogyny is a great problem, and probably much more widespread and explicit than misandry. However, misandry is still a problem, and I'm sure the two contribute to each other. If too many women start bashing the male gender, I wouldn't be surprised if many men reacted to that by starting bashing the female gender.

[Virex]

Indeed, misogyny is a great problem, and probably much more widespread and explicit than misandry. However, misandry is still a problem, and I'm sure the two contribute to each other. If too many women start bashing the male gender, I wouldn't be surprised if many men reacted to that by starting bashing the female gender.

In my experience misandry is nothing more then a thin veiled excuse for saying "See? They really are heartless bitches that need a good smack on the buttocks! Keep 'em in the kitchen or they'll start doing mean things!"

[Blargityblarg]

Indeed, misogyny is a great problem, and probably much more widespread and explicit than misandry. However, misandry is still a problem, and I'm sure the two contribute to each other. If too many women start bashing the male gender, I wouldn't be surprised if many men reacted to that by starting bashing the female gender.

In my experience misandry is nothing more then a thin veiled excuse for saying "See? They really are heartless bitches that need a good smack on the buttocks! Keep 'em in the kitchen or they'll start doing mean things!"

Then your experience differs hugely from mine and, I daresay, that of many others.

[Kay12]

Indeed, misogyny is a great problem, and probably much more widespread and explicit than misandry. However, misandry is still a problem, and I'm sure the two contribute to each other. If too many women start bashing the male gender, I wouldn't be surprised if many men reacted to that by starting bashing the female gender.

In my experience misandry is nothing more then a thin veiled excuse for saying "See? They really are heartless bitches that need a good smack on the buttocks! Keep 'em in the kitchen or they'll start doing mean things!"

Give an actual argument instead of a tall tale. And please don't pass that strawman any closer towards me. I respect women as equals - some women don't respect me as an equal because of my gender. Like I said, discussions with these people tend to end with the "male-card", that my opinion doesn't count because I'm male. That's misandry for you.

[Siquo]

Plus, it also seems common to justify attacks on some group by pointing out the harm that members of that group have done, even if the members you're targeting haven't actually done any of that harm, or that the attacks you make are insignificant compared to the harm you've suffered or the group you defend has suffered.

Yeah, that's what I don't like.
But keeping to this principle leads to unpopular conclusions, such as "anti-male feminists are bigots" and "not all Nazis are bad people".

[Virex]

Those conclusions are seemingly only unpopular on our own little enclave though, but that's another can of worms.

Indeed, misogyny is a great problem, and probably much more widespread and explicit than misandry. However, misandry is still a problem, and I'm sure the two contribute to each other. If too many women start bashing the male gender, I wouldn't be surprised if many men reacted to that by starting bashing the female gender.

In my experience misandry is nothing more then a thin veiled excuse for saying "See? They really are heartless bitches that need a good smack on the buttocks! Keep 'em in the kitchen or they'll start doing mean things!"

Then your experience differs hugely from mine and, I daresay, that of many others.

Now that you mention it, that wouldn't surprise me in the least actually, as I've noticed a large discrepancy between my experiences and those of many here on multiple occasions.