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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 870402 times)

Mindmaker

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2505 on: July 29, 2011, 12:12:14 pm »

I've been told, that a religious-conservative radio station in poland, not directed by the offical polish church but some priests, approved of spousal rape with a few exceptions.

Apparently this is old news already, but I'll still look for a source.
Ahaha, so you've heard about rev. Rydzyk's "Radio Maryja"? They're patently nuts, and appoval of spousal rape wouldn't be the worst thing they came up with.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Maryja
I've not only heard about them, but actually heard them a number of times.
My uncle is a bit of a religious nut, which also watches Trwam. He recorded an exorcism so I could watch it, but we stopped because I couldn't bear the inhumanity displayed.
My grandmother, which he is living with, is slightly more balanced.

I couldn't find the abovementioned discussion though. Will have to ask my source tomorrow.
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2506 on: July 29, 2011, 02:43:55 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Thank you Vector. [soft hug]

Andir, I don't understand what you're doing man.

Let me summarize what happened and why if you wanna get technical, you've been entirely ad hominum to me

First, I was talking about education funding being unconstitutional in Ohio and said Kasich wasn't helping
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Second, you defended Kasich and asked for my source material.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Third, I presented source material, while expressing disbelief that you asked for it and addressed each one of your points in detail.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fourth, you completely ignored my points, all of them. You reduced them all to two words, "funding complaints." It isn't that you "didn't feel like going through all of them," you didn't go through a single one of them or any part of them. Rather you totally marginalized them and basically said I was just complaining about funding, that I was mad for the sake of being mad. If you would've just done that it would've been interesting enough but then you chose to ascribe or very strongly imply terrible motives to me: bias and ignorance. So rather than addressing my points at all, you decide to say I'm biased and that don't get it/can't get it because I'm too biased.....
Spoiler (click to show/hide)


Fifth, I basically called you on point four and said you could either address my points or know I wouldn't be addressing yours.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You're still ignoring me:
Quote
One ironic part to me was: "Public education needs widespread reform in order to be effective."  -- How is Kasich's plan not widespread reform?
I've addressed this point specifically in at least two posts and you keep repeatedly going right over it and asking the same question I've already answered: Because the "parent choice program" only applies to 5% of schools and the voucher program just doesn't cover a big percentage of the state's students.

Very first post:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I didn't do a single solitary ad hominem attack against you. You don't seem to like my introductory phrases of "Tell you what," or "let me spell it out for you." No one else has ever complained about that to me ever, I talk like that in real life sometimes and no one cares. Your questions are entirely suggestive and rhetorical, because all of your questions are directed directly towards me and imply negative motives/bias/ignorance.

You are overreacting and imagining horrible things about me:

(I literally imagined you tossing the table aside and getting right in my face.) 

Where in the hell did you get that? Wow, really? You are imagining me tossing aside tables and getting in your face huh? Yeah I can't imagine anyone thinking you're overreacting.... This is another example of you totally putting words in my mouth/ascribing motives and actions to me that come out of nowhere. Even if I had a disagreement with you, do you think I'm going to physically fight you or something? Why? I'm a transsexual who likes men and wants to be a woman desperately, where the crap did you get this from? 


I do feel as though you push this idea aside (partially or wholly) based on who presented it.  (Opinion... I'm not telling you what you said.)

Do you understand that it is the substance of what you say instead of the form of it that is getting you in trouble here? You put a little disclaimer on the end saying you weren't ascribing motives/putting words in my mouth, but the substance of that statement totally does exactly that. It says you really do feel like I'm just biased and pushed the idea aside just because it came from Kasich.... That's what you're doing here even though you're saying it isn't and its far from just me who thinks so. This right here is an example of you doing it....
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 03:04:00 pm by Truean »
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2507 on: July 29, 2011, 03:55:47 pm »

http://www.globalissues.org/article/166/womens-rights

I found this article well written and supported by numerical findings when possible. Its quite amazing to me what goes on in the rest of the world, perhaps shocking is a better word? A woman every minute on earth dying from pregnancy/childbirth related complications: sad.... Unfortunately it also may be rather preventable with minimal resources, but there doesn't seem to be anyone who is both effective and demonstrability trustworthy with resources. There have been quite a few scandals with charity funding (I can't seem to find many of the articles I recall reading but here are a few):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Way_of_America#Criticism_and_scandals
http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/nonprofit/2008/06/nonprofits-in-t.html
http://nonprofiteer.net/category/charity-scandals/
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2008-07-10/great-mates-charity-at-centre-of-funding-scandal/436434
http://blog.charitynavigator.org/2009/08/big-charity-scandal-may-lead-to-big.html
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Vector

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2508 on: July 29, 2011, 04:09:57 pm »

This thread has gotten incredibly derailed, and I am getting more and more pissed about it.

The people arguing can PM each other.  If you want a three-way conversation or a mediator, whatever, CC me.  I'll actually respond to those things.  I do not want to see this particular argument again.

This issue needs to be fixed.  I am on the verge of issuing reports for inflammatory argumentation/trolling, because it seems like no matter how many times I try to smooth things over, I am not heard--and repeatedly sticking words in others' mouths fits the description.

The next time we have one of these derails for a repeat offender, I will be locking the thread for three days.

If the person does not clean up and we have another derail on the same subject soon after that, I will be issuing a report.

I do not like writing reports.  I do not report people when they are being mean.  I do not report people when they are threatening my person directly.  I issue reports when it becomes clear that we will not be able to talk it out to any benefit, and all we can do is hope for moderator action.

I especially dislike writing reports for this thread, because I have been proud of our ability to debate a number of subjects without devolving into flame wars and ad hominem attacks.  I am glad to say that I have seen people change while they were here, myself included.

I would like to keep the track record clean, if at all possible.

So please keep in mind that when I criticize an argument, it is not to discredit the argument.  It is to strengthen it.  My stake is in truth, not in making people feel bad about themselves.  I do not have enough time on this earth to devolve into pettiness and fear of being wrong.  I do not have time to entertain fallacies and eschew logic in favor of convincing others.

Simply put, I would like my time spent in this thread to be worthwhile.  That is why I ask that we treat each other with respect and take each other's requests seriously.

This needs to be the end of this.




Gay Marriage gains traction.

Racism and valedictorians.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2509 on: July 29, 2011, 04:47:21 pm »

Hate is an emotion that is based on values.  Values are subjective.  They may be informed by objective criteria, but your selection of those criteria is a subjective matter.  The KKK choose skin color as their criteria.  Leafsnail chooses other's willingness to co-exist peacefully as his criteria.

In either case, I believe hatred is ok.  It's just an emotion.  Leafsnail can hate the ideology of the KKK.  The KKK can hate a certain skin color. 

It becomes a problem when hatred is directly at human beings (the KKK themselves, not just their ideology), or when actions motivated by hatred of anything result in harm to human beings.  It is at that point when no distinctions should be made.  You can claim no higher moral ground than anyone else.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

scriver

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2510 on: July 29, 2011, 04:50:20 pm »

What the hell where they thinking? Such obvious and deliberate racism, it really says a lot about the climate if that is considered acceptable, or even a good idea from the school's side.
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Love, scriver~

MonkeyHead

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2511 on: July 29, 2011, 04:56:58 pm »

Can hate (rationally, in the true sense of the world, of anything) be justfied? Through morals or otherwise?

Duke 2.0

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2512 on: July 29, 2011, 05:11:35 pm »

 You'll have to define and possibly separate hate from simply having what would be considered a -ist belief. Like a theoretical hick that believes a specific race is superior but harbors no hate or pity for other races. They have friends they respect and love from other races while holding such a belief with no irrational connections to the events in their life, eg no "oh, Larisha didn't get that scolarship? No wonder."
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Buck up friendo, we're all on the level here.
I would bet money Andrew has edited things retroactively, except I can't prove anything because it was edited retroactively.
MIERDO MILLAS DE VIBORAS FURIOSAS PARA ESTRANGULARTE MUERTO

SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2513 on: July 29, 2011, 05:12:33 pm »

That depends on exactly how you understand hatred.  It is just an emotion.  It may not be a healthy one, but we don't control our emotions.  We can take steps to manage them, but not control them.  Our emotions can control us, however, and this is never healthy.  Even being controlled by positive emotions can be unhealthy.

A person may hate someone that tortures them, and I believe they would be justified in doing so.  However, hatred is a very strong emotion that drains our energies and consumes our thoughts.  If they're no longer in that situation, they need to learn to move on.  They also need to realize that their torturer was still a human being, who is either an extremely damaged person or is also trapped in a situation that they don't like or both.  If that person is still trapped in a situation where they are being tortured, that emotion may give them the drive necessary to combat their situation.  I do believe every emotion is biologically tailored to give us the tools we need as a response to any situation.  We just need to know how to make use of them instead of being controlled by them.

Edit:

Quote from: Vector
You assume you can stand to learn from anyone you're arguing with.

Also, I want to say that this is huge.  It's something the majority of people on the internet need to learn.  The amount of respect and tolerance you receive when you express your understanding of this concept is extraordinary.  Too many people approach every discussion of an issue with the intent to win, and this is wrong.  We discuss things to test our own beliefs, reformulate if they turn out to be weak or wrong, and learn as much as possible about what others believe and why, even if you disagree.  Any two people who speak to each other without such an approach may as well be talking to themselves.  There's no real communication.

The best way to do this, is point out your own flaws and uncertainties and constantly ask for information.  Using phrases like "I could be wrong about this, but my impression is ___, which is why I believe ___." go an incredibly long way in making others aware of your good faith, and gives others easy openings for constructive participation.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2011, 05:47:15 pm by SalmonGod »
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Leafsnail

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2514 on: July 29, 2011, 06:02:34 pm »

And that violence is begotten by love? No, I think hate is a pretty integral part of their philosophy, and the fact that you differentiate between hate-with-violence and hate-without-violence is of no concern to me, I resent both. I'm also pretty sure that Klansmen exist that do not commit violence, and know for a fact that anti-racism groups exist that do use violence (some antifa organisations), so the distinction is lost to me.
You are confusing a necessary condition for a sufficient one (yay!  That slightly odd fallacy I had to memorize for my Critical Thinking exam finally came up).  Yes, maybe it's necessary to hate someone to commit acts of racist violence.  Maybe you could therefore say it's necessary that the people who I hate for committing or being complicit in racist violence hate people.  But that doesn't mean that their hatred is sufficient to warrant my hatred.

It's not so much that I differentiate between "hate-with-violence" and "hate-without-violence"... it's more that the violence is what matters - hatred never comes into it.  A cold blooded killer for gain who doesn't hate his victims (since he just does it for their money) is still worthy of my hatred.  Your point about nonviolent Klansmen and violent anti-racists is completely irrelevant to whether you can hate the perpetrators of violence.

Incidentally:
I resent both.
Quote
Main Entry:    dislike
Part of Speech:    verb
Definition:    be antagonistic toward something; hate
Synonyms:    abhor, abominate, antipathize, avoid, be allergic to, be averse to, be turned off to, bear malice toward, condemn, contemn, deplore, despise, detest, disapprove, disesteem, disfavor, disrelish, eschew, execrate, grossed out on, have hard feelings, have no stomach for, have no taste for, loathe, look down on, lose interest in, make faces at, mind, not appreciate, not care for, not endure, not feel like, not take kindly to, object to, regret, resent , scorn, shudder at, shun
So, hatred's only ok when you use another word for it ;).
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ggamer

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2515 on: July 29, 2011, 07:50:26 pm »

To me, this feels very confrontational.  "Are you kidding?", putting "solutions" in quotes to denote disagreement, "Do you really want me to...", "Do you understand I could...", "Tell you what...", "Are you actually calling me out..."
Then she goes on to do what she claims I was doing: "don't say there isn't an ocean of opposition to him"  ... I never said that.

This was the front door for me to this whole disagreement.  It was a cold door full of demeaning comments, IMHO.

It was followed up with a post utilizing one of many emotionally filled phrases ("this crap", "Wow, let me spell this out for you", calling people morons in general) and generalizations[/ascribed motives?] ("Instead let's attack teachers along with police, firemen and every other public employee in Ohio, which the governor is expressly against...")

welcome to the thread, glad you could join.

crafty escape!

Lysabild

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2516 on: July 29, 2011, 07:53:03 pm »

I can't figure out whether you're trolling or didn't read what Vector wrote.
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Vector

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2517 on: July 29, 2011, 07:57:54 pm »

welcome to the thread, glad you could join.

crafty escape!

What's this?  I have an excuse to report someone for my own sanity and instead I'm just locking the thread?  How generous, Vector!  You even got out the lacy tablecloths and garlic tea for the special occasion!

And the tea cakes with cumin and bacon, Mr. Fillobith!  And the tea cakes with suet and anise.  Now let's all quietly, quietly go down this rabbit hole so we can meet Miss Vector and all her hats for the party.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Vector

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2518 on: August 01, 2011, 03:16:55 pm »

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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

fqllve

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #2519 on: August 01, 2011, 03:23:38 pm »

Women don't value family as much as men!!  Ohhhh... wait.
Surveys...

But beyond the fact that they had it rigged, it bothers me that they equated 'valuing' a family with it being the ultimate status symbol. To my mind thats both devaluing and objectification.

And why didn't women get career as an option?
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You don't use freedom Penguin. First you demand it, then you have it.
No using. That's not what freedom is for.
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