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[Africa]

Even "no means no", which is otherwise pretty much bulletproof, isn't a real great legal standard since it's one person's word against the other...I mean if he admits she said no then that makes it easy to convict, but if he says she didn't and she says she did...then you have reasonable doubt and a possible rapist might go free. Then again the whole liberal criminal justice system is built on that - better 10 guilty men free than one innocent man punished. There may be no way around it.

Unlike other issues, this isn't one where people have lots of workable, reasonable solutions figured out and are wanting to get them implemented - all debates about it seem to be on what the hell a workable, reasonable solution could vaguely look like.

[Vector]

What can I say? My stereotype of math people is that they think people can be figured out with clean systems.

Yeah, I've written equations in an attempt to figure people out.  I've read textbooks on game theory and I've read book after book on negotiation, emotional intelligence, and reading non-visual cues.  I've planned out finite-state machines for my mind and emotional behavior.  I've built system after system.  I've been laughed at by person after person for how "quaint" my understanding of the human mind is.  I've been told by other people with autism that I was too fucking stupid to teach, or that I just didn't understand all these simple, basic things.

All the same, I don't like feeling like other people are looking down their noses at me.  I won't laugh at you if you can't compute a tip quickly.  However, I'll receive scorn for failure in that domain, as well.

I'm tired of feeling ashamed of myself.


Very good.  I can see that the consensus is that this is a pipe dream, so instead I shall continue to make myself unattractive in hopes of no one ever misinterpreting my lack of consent.

I really hate this universe today.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Even "no means no", which is otherwise pretty much bulletproof, isn't a real great legal standard since it's one person's word against the other...I mean if he admits she said no then that makes it easy to convict, but if he says she didn't and she says she did...then you have reasonable doubt and a possible rapist might go free. Then again the whole liberal criminal justice system is built on that - better 10 guilty men free than one innocent man punished. There may be no way around it.

Unlike other issues, this isn't one where people have lots of workable, reasonable solutions figured out and are wanting to get them implemented - all debates about it seem to be on what the hell a workable, reasonable solution could vaguely look like.

This is why we ought to encourage rape victims to seek help and police early and such immediately instead of having them feel powerlessly victimised or have non-rape victims attempt to capitalise on sex when the 'rapist' is rich or famous.

[Tyg13]

I really hate this universe today.

Welcome to the Universe! Probably the only one we'll get, so make the best of it! Oh... and just a warning, but there may be assholes sometimes. Okay, maybe the majority of the time.

But you get through it, I guess.

[Truean]

What can I say? My stereotype of math people is that they think people can be figured out with clean systems.

Yeah, I've written equations in an attempt to figure people out.  I've read textbooks on game theory and I've read book after book on negotiation, emotional intelligence, and reading non-visual cues.  I've planned out finite-state machines for my mind and emotional behavior.  I've built system after system.  I've been laughed at by person after person for how "quaint" my understanding of the human mind is.  I've been told by other people with autism that I was too fucking stupid to teach, or that I just didn't understand all these simple, basic things.

All the same, I don't like feeling like other people are looking down their noses at me.  I won't laugh at you if you can't compute a tip quickly.  However, I'll receive scorn for failure in that domain, as well.

I'm tired of feeling ashamed of myself.


Very good.  I can see that the consensus is that this is a pipe dream, so instead I shall continue to make myself unattractive in hopes of no one ever misinterpreting my lack of consent.

I really hate this universe today.

[Softly Hugs Vector if she's cool with it]

Saying no is all you should ever need. If that doesn't work, then it's the other person's fault.

[scriver]

Since when are we talking about what works as a legal standard? We were talking about what constitutes rape, and the line between "misunderstandings" and rape. Just because it can't be proven to be rape in a court of law does not mean it wasn't rape.

One way of demonstrating enthusiastic consent is by participating enthusiastically.

Not all consent needs to be verbal.

Not all people are comfortable jumping in and acting aggressively all the time (and in some cases, ever), even if they want sex.

No always means no and if you want to mean no, you say it. And you never move to advance unless your partner is capable of saying no. Once no has been said, all advances stop and you need to ask if no means back the hell off or I like where you are but not further. You need an explicit yes to advance from there. If you want to play with saying no, you need to agree to safe words beforehand just like other kink.

Its simple, does not impede romance and removes ambiguity.

Did you read the link I posted above?

And seriously, there shouldn't be need to say no outright. Body language and cues should be enough. Just like in every other aspect of our lives.

[Africa]

I really hate this universe today.

Well I think everybody does some days.

In general, if you think any regular poster in this thread is making a personal attack on you, you can probably safely assume you're reading it wrong. Give me the benefit of the doubt before cussing at me...

Anyway, it may be a pipe dream, but isn't the point of this thread to test out ideas and see how they stand up under different questioning?

@Kael: I think we can all agree on that...

@Scriver: I dunno, I think I respond to difficulty of figuring fuzzy issues by changing subject to the solid ground of what happens in court

[scriver]

@Scriver: I dunno, I think I respond to difficulty of figuring fuzzy issues by changing subject to the solid ground of what happens in court

Which is slightly ridiculous, as even cases were the victim clearly said no over and over but didn't get beaten up are notoriously hard to prove in court.

[Bauglir]

To clarify, I'm saying that because individual requests for consent would get quickly ridiculous, requiring explicit consent only once, to the general category of "sexual acts", would be acceptable. And maybe require additional requests for something that seems odd, like using an unconventional orifice, but that's something that's strongly up to individual preference and as long as you're willing to apologize for a misunderstanding if it turns out your partner didn't expect that, I'm not going to be particularly harsh as long as the general consent was given clearly.

But that consent, from either party, can have conditions attached (wear a condom), and be revoked at any time (saying no when he wakes you up). Yes, there are potentially situations in which the latter is a nasty thing to do, but I cannot think of one where it's worse than respecting somebody's decision about it. And if you're not respecting those limitations, then it's falling outside of consent.

Now, I'll admit, there is a lot of gray area with a not-instantly-jumping-to-sex relationship. And, maybe I'm wrong on this, but the less extremely sexual the act in question is, the less vital it is to be unambiguous. It's less acceptable to penetrate someone than it would be to fondle that person than it would be to kiss that person than it would be to hold that person's hand, assuming that all of this is something the person doesn't really want. When you're getting to sex, I'm encouraging clarity because errors have much more far-reaching consequences.

And I haven't touched on the practicality of enforcing this legally. Effective implementation on a legal basis would require preposterous violations of privacy. I'm not really talking about the law here. I'm just talking about how I feel people ought to conduct themselves. I may well be wrong, and I certainly have no power to enforce it (nor should I), but it is still something I feel is reasonable to discuss.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and with regards Assange specifically... Before the extradition thing where his lawyers didn't even try denying it, I was unsure who to believe, because in both cases it worked out to presuming guilt of somebody in advance. However, at this point, it seems much likelier that their accounts are accurate, so I feel like what I've been talking about does apply to him.

[SalmonGod]

When someone is actively asleep, they cannot participate.  Not enthusiastically.  Not otherwise.  I think that's the entire point.

So the initiation was questionable.  I get it.  But if she woke up, and proceeded to participate enthusiastically, does it continue to be unacceptable?

If I'm emotionally mature, it's because I've had enough concentrated negative experiences to find some degree of compassion >_>

Compassion isn't the same as emotional maturity.  I mean you actively develop self-awareness and by extension have knowledge of your own social abilities and boundaries and do your best to work around them.  You tolerate disagreement and take life's ups and downs with better grace than most.

Your compassion by this methodology translates into an intense study of what causes you discomfort and how you can avoid passing that discomfort onto others.  You attempt to invent and promote rulesets to help others achieve this style of harmony and balance.  I am very much this same way, and it took me a very long time to realize that the majority of people do not operate in this fashion.

I've mainly come to absorb this through learning about my wife, who has suffered severe emotional trauma in her life, and has also managed to turn herself into a compassionate person.  But she's a hardcore ESFJ.  Self-awareness and education aren't her thing.  She expects all problems to be solvable through brute force application of charisma and (externally directed) willpower, which she has in excess.  As a heavily extroverted person, she radiates her problems rather than coping internally.  She speaks her mind before she even knows she is speaking, and it's near impossible for her to consider her own motivations or long-term consequences when acting on her impulses.  She's well-meaning in everything she does... but I absolutely cannot imagine someone like her living up to the standards described by your link. 

In fact, it's taken me many years to get her to realize many of the ways that she can be abusive without realizing it, and we still have a long way to go.  If our gender roles were reversed, I could easily accuse her of rape or plenty of other things, if we went by the standards we've discussed.  But as hard as living with her can be, I don't believe she actually deserves that.  There are many people like her in the world, and many of them are men.

Does this make sense?

Edit:  To clarify, the way she expresses compassion is in doing good things, while being really bad at avoiding doing bad things.  Completely the opposite of you or I.  She can always think of a way to make someone happy when she wants to, and when she's happy, she extrovertedly projects her happiness onto others with this skill.  However, she is terrible at realizing when or how she has made someone else unhappy, and when she is hurt, she projects that hurt onto others as well.  Considering most of her life before we were together was made of violated boundaries, that is the hurt that she often radiates and it's something I've had to deal with and learn to be very understanding about.  So I hope you understand why I press so hard for understanding and recognition of the complexity in matters such as these.  I don't imagine I could be any more intimately familiar with these matters without being a sociologist or a victim myself.  I have spent the last 11 years literally absorbing someone else's pain, and I've learned that people don't always hurt each other because they mean to.

[Realmfighter]

In good news:
http://news.yahoo.com/calif-gov-signs-landmark-law-teach-gay-history-190037960.html

I hate the republican opposition: "it might teach kids to accept homosexuality...." No shit.... We can only hope.

I love how their Argument is less of a Argument and more of a Bigoted circle jerk.

"This thing about not hating Homosexuals is bad, because you should hate Homosexuals. I know because I hate Homosexuals."

[Truean]

In good news:
http://news.yahoo.com/calif-gov-signs-landmark-law-teach-gay-history-190037960.html

I hate the republican opposition: "it might teach kids to accept homosexuality...." No shit.... We can only hope.

I love how their Argument is less of a Argument and more of a Bigoted circle jerk.

"This thing about not hating Homosexuals is bad, because you should hate Homosexuals. I know because I hate Homosexuals."

Me too.... Craptacular POS sorry excuse for an argument.... *sigh*

[SalmonGod]

It's one that I've heard a lot too.  I've had debates with a few religious conservatives about gay rights that boiled directly down to "I'm too grossed out by it" and "I don't want my kids to grow up in a world where that's ok."

[Realmfighter]

My favorite part about that argument is that it's unbeatable.

[G-Flex]

My responses:

I'm too grossed out by it.

Your own irrational, emotional response to something has nothing to do with the actual ethics of it. I'm grossed out by some foods, but that doesn't mean I think people shouldn't be allowed to eat them.

I don't want my kids to grow up in a world where that's ok.

This isn't even an argument. If you don't want that, then that must be because you think it's wrong on principle, and asking why it's wrong to begin with is kind of the point here. It's a horribly incomplete answer.