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Author Topic: Chill and Relaxed Progressive Irritation and Annoyance Thread  (Read 855239 times)

Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1710 on: July 15, 2011, 08:45:40 am »

"It's not torture, it's therapy the parents consented to, and homosexuality is wrong anyhow." *sigh*

People scare the shit out of me.
http://www.samesexattraction.org/
http://www.narth.com/docs/camft.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_for_Research_%26_Treatment_of_Homosexuality

These bigoted bastards are allowed to exist and operate....
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 08:49:02 am by Truean »
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Leafsnail

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1711 on: July 15, 2011, 10:52:26 am »

On the Assange case, it's worth noting that since he's currently fighting extradition rather than the actual case, the evidence against him is currently not being discussed.  What his lawyer's are trying to argue (and have to argue to avoid extradition) is that the charges against him don't amount to crimes in the UK.  Which... they may actually have a case for, considering the UK definition of rape:
Quote from: Defendant A is guilty of rape if...
- A intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of B (the complainant) with his penis;

- B does not consent to the penetration; and,

- A does not reasonably believe that B consents.
The third one is the crucial part.  I think this part of the law really, really sucks (ignorance should almost never excuse you from a crime) but his lawyer's could probably make a reasonable case based on it.

On the CIA tangent, you're talking about international law in terms of an universal morality, of which- there currently isn't. The CIA simply exists to enforce what the government and other powerful individuals see as the best policies for the US. To claim that they are "beholden" to anyone else ignores the reality of the situation - which isn't to say that "might makes right" but the ICJ (Internaional Court of Justice) have never persecuted anyone there that I know of.
On the other hand, the UK (or Sweden, if he's extradited there) does have laws against murdering people here.  Being a member of the CIA does not make you immune to them.
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Virex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1712 on: July 15, 2011, 11:04:54 am »

On the other hand, the UK (or Sweden, if he's extradited there) does have laws against murdering people here.  Being a member of the CIA does not make you immune to them.
As far as I know, international law explicitly forbids the enforcement of penalties outside of the persecuting nation. So even though the UK does have a law against murdering people, they could persecute a CAI official that resides within the US, but without the US's consent they could not lock him away, because that would be a violation of the sovereignty of the US. And as the US is very picky about transferring people that have been convicted abroad, persecuting a US citizen abroad is petty much a waste of time.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1713 on: July 15, 2011, 12:20:24 pm »

Ok, I'll say it - prosecuting.  Please.

Secondly... extradition.  The UK and US have a treaty about it.  If there is evidence that a CIA assassin murdered Assange here, it would be completely illegal for the US to block a trial on it (not to mention the huge diplomatic stir that murdering someone in a friendly country for crimes that have not been proven in a court of law and which may not be prosecutable at all).

And no, preventing assassinations of foreign nationals due to vague, flimsy and unproven charges does not violate the sovereignity of the US.
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Kay12

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1714 on: July 15, 2011, 02:43:14 pm »

"It's not torture, it's therapy the parents consented to, and homosexuality is wrong anyhow." *sigh*

People scare the shit out of me.
http://www.samesexattraction.org/
http://www.narth.com/docs/camft.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_for_Research_%26_Treatment_of_Homosexuality

These bigoted bastards are allowed to exist and operate....

Another thing that makes this even more complicated is that there is really no reason why adult people who want to undertake therapy to change their sexual preferences shouldn't be allowed to do so. It just has to be made clear some way that forcing one's kids (or anyone else) to undertake such therapy isn't healthy.
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Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1715 on: July 15, 2011, 03:07:01 pm »

"It's not torture, it's therapy the parents consented to, and homosexuality is wrong anyhow." *sigh*

People scare the shit out of me.
http://www.samesexattraction.org/
http://www.narth.com/docs/camft.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Association_for_Research_%26_Treatment_of_Homosexuality

These bigoted bastards are allowed to exist and operate....

Another thing that makes this even more complicated is that there is really no reason why adult people who want to undertake therapy to change their sexual preferences shouldn't be allowed to do so. It just has to be made clear some way that forcing one's kids (or anyone else) to undertake such therapy isn't healthy.

You're looking at it from the wrong angle: the operators are frauds and expensive ones at that. They shouldn't be allowed to defraud these people....

"Same-sex Attraction Disorder. And what troubles me is why the folks in Big Pharmaceutical
haven’t invented a pill for this disease. Clearly, they’re in the business of selling sickness. If there was a profit
to be made, they would make it. And with an estimated gay population of over 10 million in the U.S. alone,
there’s certainly a big enough market. Could it be that they can’t cure it? Well, not to worry. If Big
Pharmaceutical can’t do it, maybe Big Religion can. And they are. They’re the ones who coined the term,
“Same-Sex Attraction Disorder.” It’s a very good name. Very important, a good name. It’s a crucial first step in
disqualifying homosexuals as a segment of the population and categorizing them as a disease. Makes
homosexuals seem less like people and more like the flu. And with terrible, awful symptoms, [makes a face]
but curable, and therefore less concerning when it comes to things like an individual’s rights: freedom, privacy,
marriage. Big Religion is very concerned with marriage. Big Religion is the one filling the pockets of Congress.
It actually got them to propose a Constitutional ban on gay marriage. Think about that. A governmentally
imposed, systematic prejudice against a class based on their sexual orientation. Never mind that one of the
most trusted evangelical advisers to the President was himself having a homosexual affair on the side. Never
mind that one of our Congressmen was writing naughty e-mails to his teenage male pages. Isn’t it just a
disease? And I thought it was curable. That’s what they told me down at the church. Well, you can legislate
against it. You can give it a clever name and treat people for it. You can shut your eyes, have sex with your
wife, and pretend it all feels right. You can join the church and swear to be celibate. You can drive around on a
Saturday night with a baseball bat and try to beat it out of some poor soul you happen to meet. You can even
come to a courtroom and testify as to your new leaf and how well it’s all working. What a miracle! My only
response is: Give it time. We’ll see. Meanwhile, these companies take $40,000, promising to cure gayness.
Only in America! Only in a country that overtly and notoriously celebrates its prejudice
against a class of people by proposing Constitutional amendments. God bless us all! Home of the brave!
Shame on them. Couldn’t they have at least offered a money-back guarantee, and thrown in a blender?"

[Steps off soapbox]
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1716 on: July 15, 2011, 03:30:06 pm »

I can't help but comment on how strange it is for me when people get detailed on the legal technicalities of a social issue.  I realized at a very early age that people do not really care about the law when it doesn't serve their agenda (including those responsible for upholding it), and the law means absolutely nothing when those responsible refuse or fail to uphold it.

We have Wikileaks.  We've seen the establishment's response to Wikileaks.  Need I say more?  Can we please get over the misguided notion that the law can or will prevent or fix the sort of wrongdoings being discussed, or that it is somehow independent of the combined actions of the (very often prejudiced) voters, politicians, judges, juries, lawyers, police, etc?  Whether majority rules by technicality or not doesn't matter.  If the majority isn't on board, then technicalities tend not to matter.

Society as a whole cannot be any better than the people it is made of.  That is the issue, the way I see it.
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Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Vector

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1717 on: July 15, 2011, 04:05:33 pm »

But as hard as living with her can be, I don't believe she actually deserves that.  There are many people like her in the world, and many of them are men.  So I hope you understand why I press so hard for understanding and recognition of the complexity in matters such as these.

No, not really.  But then, I am someone who has, in the entirety of my life, reached out to just touch someone on the arm (you know--in the middle of a conversation, when you just touch someone) precisely once.  That was about two weeks ago.

I've never been able to understand how anyone could touch anyone else without negotiation.  Heck, I don't even like being negotiated with for touch.  Someone opens their arms and suggests a hug, and sometimes I'll think "fuck you for thinking of it."

Best thing about my ex was that he asked permission for absolutely everything.  I ran away the first time he asked for my hand, but I came back, eheheh.  Don't think I'd want to date someone who didn't ask.

So... no, I'm not saying "everyone should be me," I'm saying "what you're mentioning is currently unimaginable for me, but I'll think about it."
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SalmonGod

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1718 on: July 15, 2011, 04:53:55 pm »

Yeah, I understand.  I appreciate your honesty.

While I've never had the type of aversion to contact that you have, I was really confused at first, too.  I knew my wife online for 4 years before we met in real life, and I knew about many of the abuses she'd suffered.  I actually went through a major feminist phase because of it.  I read and thought a lot about sexuality, victim's stories, patriarchy, etc.  I thought very much the same way you do. 

When I finally met her in real life, I was not expecting anything that happened.  First, I had so little real social experience, and zero regarding intimacy.  Second, I had spent all that time imagining the kind of person I would be if I had experienced the things she had.  She was completely the opposite of that.  I learned the (very) hard way just how drastically different people's emotional processes (and resulting actions) can be, and how limited in scope all the social theory I'd been entertaining really was compared to reality.  My sympathies are as strong as ever, but my convictions have diffused greatly. 

At this point I believe that everyone is abusive towards everyone in different ways and to varying degrees.  It's literally impossible not to be.  What matters is how your ability to understand your own limits while adapting to the people around you, and recognize whether or not others are doing the same.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1719 on: July 15, 2011, 05:57:49 pm »

But as hard as living with her can be, I don't believe she actually deserves that.  There are many people like her in the world, and many of them are men.  So I hope you understand why I press so hard for understanding and recognition of the complexity in matters such as these.

No, not really.  But then, I am someone who has, in the entirety of my life, reached out to just touch someone on the arm (you know--in the middle of a conversation, when you just touch someone) precisely once.  That was about two weeks ago.

I've never been able to understand how anyone could touch anyone else without negotiation.  Heck, I don't even like being negotiated with for touch.  Someone opens their arms and suggests a hug, and sometimes I'll think "fuck you for thinking of it."

Best thing about my ex was that he asked permission for absolutely everything.  I ran away the first time he asked for my hand, but I came back, eheheh.  Don't think I'd want to date someone who didn't ask.

So... no, I'm not saying "everyone should be me," I'm saying "what you're mentioning is currently unimaginable for me, but I'll think about it."

I had no idea, sorry for the hug thingy. :(
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Vector

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1720 on: July 15, 2011, 06:04:07 pm »

It's the internet, so I don't care  :P

I'll usually accept hugs out of principle, anyway, because I don't get them much from folks outside the family.  It's mostly people like my dad, who think I should always be up for hugs whenever he wants, or teachers that occasionally stand a bit closer than I'd prefer.  Well, and folks I've just met who want hugs.

But in general, people don't touch me anyway, so it's not much of a big deal >_>
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Truean

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1721 on: July 15, 2011, 06:05:34 pm »

[sigh of relief]

Cool. In reality I'm a very hug accepting person, though in the lie I live, I come off as cold etc. So happy to do it here. :)
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The kinda human wreckage that you love

Current Spare Time Fiction Project: (C) 2010 http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=63660.0
Disclaimer: I never take cases online for ethical reasons. If you require an attorney; you need to find one licensed to practice in your jurisdiction. Never take anything online as legal advice, because each case is different and one size does not fit all. Wants nothing at all to do with law.

Please don't quote me.

Virex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1722 on: July 15, 2011, 06:11:27 pm »

I'll usually accept hugs out of principle, anyway, because I don't get them much from folks outside the family.  It's mostly people like my dad, who think I should always be up for hugs whenever he wants, or teachers that occasionally stand a bit closer than I'd prefer.  Well, and folks I've just met who want hugs.
Haver you considered telling these people that they make you feel uncomfortable yet? From the sound of it you're just letting it happen while it's disturbing you. You don't have to put up with people invading your personal space you know.
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Vector

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1723 on: July 15, 2011, 06:20:41 pm »

Haver you considered telling these people that they make you feel uncomfortable yet? From the sound of it you're just letting it happen while it's disturbing you. You don't have to put up with people invading your personal space you know.

Yeah, I do.  Just like I have to sit around when people make too much noise (i.e. talk at all), ring gongs, or rearrange desks.  Because it's "unnatural" to be upset.  Sometimes my mom will stand in for me when I get really upset, though.  Uh, usually it has to be at the point where I'm near-involuntarily hitting myself or screaming, though, and often my parents will just tell me to cool it or grow up >____>  My mom also helps when I'm defragmenting and talking about how I'm a bumblebee helicopter, though.  My understanding of metaphorical language tends to go a bit whacky after a sudden relief of a lot of stress.

What's it say about a daughter, who is supposed to be touchy-feely and warm and nurturing and shit, who doesn't like hugs or pleasing her father?

I have different personal space than most people.  Because I am different, I have to bend.  Sadly, that's the way this world works for me right now, try as I have to live differently.  So... you know.  I build up my tolerances, I make a practice of guessing who's coming by their footsteps and picking my interactions.  I've gotten pretty good at making a run for it when I hear my roommates coming XD

And, as for the professors... well, part of me minds, but part of me doesn't mind, so I go with the part that doesn't care and try to ignore it.  I don't want to spread the bad feeling that comes of telling folks to back off.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Virex

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Re: Vector's Progressive Rage Thread
« Reply #1724 on: July 15, 2011, 06:29:49 pm »

Being different does not excuse others from driving you to the point that you're hitting yourself. There may be a few bad feelings associated with telling people to back the fuck off, but that's only a few times, where if you don't say anything you're going to keep getting yourself in a knot.

What's it say about a daughter, who is supposed to be touchy-feely and warm and nurturing and shit, who doesn't like hugs or pleasing her father?
You know, there are places you can get help with that. You don't have to put up with this kind of abuse. It may be hard to let go as hes your father, but your own life is more important. GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM HIM.
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