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[Knirisk]

Incidentally, it also explains why Swain is such a beast in teamfights. Aside from his obvious tankiness, his sustained AP damage (already more costly to itemize against).

Although, yes, thanks, that really helps! Previously, I actually was buying MR against burst casters like Akali, but now it makes more sense overall to buy health. I'll probably be getting a Warmog's on Veigar from now on, too.

[cerapa]

So, what youre arguing is that health is better when you dont have a lot of health? I can get behind that.

It has absolutely nothing to do with burst or sustain though. Damage is still damage. If you were to replace every mention of burst with magic, then everything is correct.

[Knirisk]

So, what youre arguing is that health is better when you dont have a lot of health?

It has absolutely nothing to do with burst or sustain. Damage is still damage.

Health is effective against burst casters because burst casters have cooldowns. It's not so effective because AD carries, in a sense of the word, have a cooldown of 0.5 or so seconds between attacks in late game. Burst casters can only smack their foe three or four times before backing off for 5 seconds.

[cerapa]

So, what youre arguing is that health is better when you dont have a lot of health?

It has absolutely nothing to do with burst or sustain. Damage is still damage.

Health is effective against burst casters because burst casters have cooldowns. It's not so effective because AD carries, in a sense of the word, have a cooldown of 0.5 or so seconds between attacks in late game. Burst casters can only smack their foe three or four times before backing off for 5 seconds.

WHY?! It makes absolutely no difference whetever its spaced out or not.

Hell resists would actually be better in that case simply because the heals and health regen would be better.

EDIT: Or did we somehow talk past eachother and you started talking about health vs not getting health, instead of health vs resists?

[umiman]

Cerapa: Technically speaking, it doesn't make a difference yes. But like I've been emphasizing, Riot explicitely designed their game so that for most of the game, all throughout the early to mid game, burst damage WILL do just enough damage to instantly kill a target even through MR. it's very hard to explain how they did this, but I did write out some simple maths on it. You might also notice that all the sustained damage mages (with one exception, Malzahar) don't do enough damage to instantly kill a target from full hp. This is all by design.

You basically got it right though. This happens because champions destined to die to burst damage all have really low base HP. Again, because of this, they will get obliterated from the burst damage casters regardless of how much MR they can afford at that point. Furthermore, because of how resistances only start to become useful when damages are high enough to overcome the cost of buying the MR and how mages get weaker and weaker as time goes on, you get this weird situation where you're buying a defensive stat to fight a champion that's getting weaker naturally.

Lastly, and most importantly. MR is really expensive, doesn't give a lot, and is very hard to itemize for compared to the two other defensive stats. The easiest is probably Banshee's Veil and Merc Treads but that's about it. Hell, these days even Banshee's is getting pretty rare. Compare this to armour or health, where there's a ridiculous amount of items that give these stats and well... you see where I'm going with this.

These three reasons are why you are probably better off stacking HP instead unless facing a ridiculous amount of AP damage. I know it really seems counterintuitive but there you have it.

[Nilocy]

Quickly, start litterally forumulating and make a forumulae

[cerapa]

Stuff.

...just stop calling magic damage burst damage and all is well with the world.

That is all.

[umiman]

I'm not calling magic damage burst damage. It's the same for Garen, Talon, Pantheon, etc. who are all AD burst casters. =|

Except, like I explained in my original post. Armour is so cheap and everyone has so much of it that you can freely spam armour against those guys. Even so, you would achieve better results buying a Warmogs against Talon than you would buying a Randuin's Omen or Frozen Heart.

[cerapa]

There would still be no differences between burst and sustained. If you can get better results from a warmogs, then thats because a warmogs is more cost-effective.

[umiman]

... Yes... that's the point I've been making in the past 4 posts... =|

[Bordellimies]

Here's a thought for a champion concept:

Kaos, the Primordial Form:

Passive: Kaos' respawn time penalty is decreased by 5% per level (alternately, just a random copied passive)

Q, W, E, R = Randomly copied from any other champion is who alive at the time that Kaos spawns.

Basically, no powers of his own, he just copies everyone else's powers at random. Once he spawns, he's set with those powers until he dies and respawns, at which time the game rerolls his powers, based on who's still on the field. Potentially very powerful, but also a real challenge to use (and to item build for). You couldn't min-max build him based solely around a single stat because your next batch of powers might be useless with them.

Also adds a bit of strategy in trying to time your spawn and/or trying to kill powerful enemies *after* Kaos has spawned in order to allow him a shot at copying their powers.

Would also be a serious wild card to play against, because you would have to pay careful attention to know his capabilities and counter them accordingly. And when you do manage to kill him, then you've got to start from scratch relearning what he's capable of this time. It's an inherently self-balancing character: if you're leet and never die, then eventually the other team knows all your tricks and can plan for them. If you die a lot, then you're constantly a wild card throwing a wrench into teamfights.

I guess he'd be a little like Mokujin in the Tekken series (hell, they could even use Mokujin as the basis for the character design, although I was picturing something more like an anthropomorphic form of liquid metal, like in Terminator 2.)

I'm liking this idea a lot. Only problem would be that if you get a bad skillset you can just suicide at baron. But hey, that would waste his time so yeah. This guy seems like a nice challenge to play as.


I also have few of my own ideas. I do have more, but I don't wanna dump all of them at once.

Spoiler: Bodyguard, the Bodyguard (Tank) (click to show/hide)

Passive: Guardian

Whenever a nearby allied champion is attacked by an enemy champion, Bodyguard's cooldowns are reduced by 0.5 seconds.





Q - All for One

Passive: Bodyguard receives 3/4/5/6/7 health every time a nearby allied champion is attacked (3 times larger effect if attacked by a champion)

Active: Bodyguard sacrifices 5% of his current life + 40/55/70/85/90, and heals the target ally for 100/115/130/145/160% of the health sacrificed.


Cost: 100 mana
Cooldown: 20/19/18/17/16 seconds





W -

Bodyguard shields targeted ally unit for 6 seconds, granting it 10/15/20/25/30 bonus armor and magic resistance. Additionally, attacking the shielded unit taunts the attacker towards Bodyguard for 0.5/0.75/1/1.25/1.5 seconds (can be taunted up to two times)


Cost: 80/85/90/95/100 mana
Cooldown: 12 seconds





E - Convert

Passive: 10% chance on hit to convert enemy minion to join the Bodyguard's own team (doesn't work on enemies with over 500 health). Converted minions behave like normal ones, but do not grant expirience or gold upon kill. Upon converting a minion, it is healed for 50% of it's max hp.

Active: Bodyguard's next attack deals 60/80/100/120/140 (+ 25% of armor and magic resistance) extra magic damage, and prevents the enemy from attacking or casting spells for 1/1.25/1.5/1.75/2 seconds. Killing an minion with this ability is guaranteed to convert them.


Cost: 60/70/80/90/100 mana
Cooldown: 12/11/10/9/8 seconds




R - Personal Protector

Bodyguard blesses the target ally for 5/6/7 seconds, and takes 20% of the damage the targeted ally receives (reduced by Bodyguard's armor and magic resistance). Whenever enemies attack the blessed target, they have their movement and attack speed slowed by 20/35/50% for 2 seconds, and Bodyguard receives 10/17.5/25% increased movement speed for 2 seconds.

Spoiler:  Yurei, the Shadow Assassin (Melee stealth AD assassin) (click to show/hide)

Yurei, the Shadow Assassin

Discipline of Darkness (Passive)

Yurei has 10% increased movement speed whenever he can't be seen by enemy units (ignores jungle creeps)





Q - Shadow Strike

Yurei blinks behind the targeted enemy champion and stabs that unit wth his sword, dealing 40/60/80/100/120 (+ 0.4 of Attack Damage, + 0.2 of Ability Power) physical damage.
If Yurei isn't attacked for 1 second after the stab, the enemy will be blinded and silenced for 1.5 seconds, and Yurei returns to his original location, stealthed for 3/3.5/4/4.5/5 seconds.

Cooldown: 8 seconds after the initial stab
Cost: 70 Energy
Range: 700





W - Mark of the Cobra

Yurei places an invisible marker to the ground. If an enemy steps on the marker, the unit will be feared for 2 seconds and Yurei stealths for 3/3.5/4/4.5/5 seconds. Yurei deals additional 15/20/25/30/35% damage to the marked unit. The mark lasts for 6 seconds, and the marked spot on the ground for 60 seconds. Max 2 marked spots.

Cooldown: 20 seconds
Cost: 100 Energy
Range: 1000





E - Moon Crescent Strike

Passive: Every 5th attack will refill 20/25/30/35/40 Energy.
Active: Yurei swings his sword around him, dealing 60/85/110/135/160 (+ 0.3 of Attack Damage) physical damage to all units around him. Yurei also stealths for 2 seconds, plus 0.2 seconds for every unit he struck. Yurei also refills 10 energy for each enemy hit.

Cooldown: 10/9/8/7/6 seconds
Cost: 80 Energy





R -

Passive: Yurei's attacks slow the target's movement speed by 10/15/20% if they have their back turned to him.
Active: Yurei blinks behind the target enemy champion, and receives additional 10/20/30% attack speed for 10 seconds (stacks up to 3 times). If Yurei's target attacks him within 2 seconds of using the ability, Yurei receives a shield with 100/150/200 (+0.4 AP) health and stealth for 2 seconds, and the ability's cooldown is reduced to 0 as well.

Cooldown: 7 seconds
Cost: 40 Energy
Range: 200

Spoiler: Frozenberg, the Chilling Knight (Melee Mage/Hybrid) (click to show/hide)

FrozenBerg

Blade of Ice (passive)

Frozenberg chills his enemies for 3 seconds if they receive damage from his spells. Basic attacks silence the chilled enemies for 1.5 seconds and slow movement speed by 15% for 1.5 seconds. This effect can occur on the same enemy only once every 10 seconds.




Q - Arctic Bang

Frozenberg casts a spell on the target area, and after 2 seconds he can activate the ability again to blast the area with freezing air and ice. Enemies in the area receive 100/130/165/205/250 (+0.8 AP) damage and have their movement speed slowed by 30/35/40/45/50% for 3 seconds.
Additionally, the targeted area will be frozen for 6 seconds after the blast. Enemies in the frozen area have 60% reduced turn speed and they cannot gain movement speed as long as they stay on the area.

Mana cost: 100/110/120/130/140
Cooldown: 16/15/14/13/12 seconds




W - Frozen Mount

Passive: Frozenberg's horse increases his movement speed by 8/10/12/14/16% and increases his attack damage by 15/20/25/30/35.
If Frozenberg doesn't move for 5 seconds, his horse will become rested. When he starts to move, his movement speed is increased by additional 12/14/16/18/20%: This diminishes over 5 seconds. This effect has 30 second cooldown.

Mana cost: N/A
Cooldown: N/A




E - Glacial Armor Plating

Passive: Frozenberg's plating is covered in ice, increasing his armor and magic resistance by 10/15/20/25/30. Enemies that attack him have their attack speed reduced by 14/18/22/26/30% and their movement speed by 7/9/11/13/15% for 1 second.
Active: Frozenberg uses the ice on his armor to bind an enemy, dealing 80/90/100/110/120 (+0.3 AP) magic damage to the enemy and snaring them for 1.3/1.6/1.9/2.2/2.5 seconds. His passive effect is removed during cooldown.

Mana cost: 60/75/90/105/120
Cooldown: 10 seconds




R - Howl of the Tundra

Frozenberg creates a freezing wind, dealing 10/20/30 (+0.1 AP) magic damage and slows the movement speed by 3/6/9 % per tick to all enemies in a cone in front of Frozenberg. The longer the enemy stays in the wind, the more damage and slow amount will be dealt per tick.
Damage and slow amount are increased by 10% per tick. Ticks every 0.25 seconds.

Mana cost: 50/75/100 mana per second
Cooldown: 40/35/30 seconds after deactivation.

[Bluerobin]

Sorry umi, it still doesn't make sense. The only difference between burst damage and sustain damage is the amount of time in which the damage is done. If MR reduces it by a percentage it doesn't matter if the damage is being done over one second or ten, it'll still reduce it by the same percent.

I can get behind you saying that building health tends to be easier and more cost effective than MR, but when you say health is better against burst and MR against sustain there's just no math that you could possibly do to support your claim. The only math you did shows that health is better against a combo of physical and magic damage, since the math I did was exactly the same and showed that 3000 gold buys almost an identical effective health against magic damage regardless of whether you do health or MR.

On an unrelated note, wooo Karma skin sale! The one I don't have! The one that looks like a carrot!

[penguinofhonor]

I've either entered the twilight zone or experienced some new level of jungler blaming.

I'm jungling shyvana, right? We're sort of losing, but not by all that much. I'm 1/0/1 and things are going pretty well. Bot is losing pretty hard but our panth in top is winning and our mid is doing okay. Bot gives the enemy team a double kill, and pantheon's response is "SHYVANA LEARN TO JUNGLE." I've got no fucking clue why, and he refuses to explain why this is my fault.

Then it gets to midgame, and the enemy team is around dragon. Our bot lane (zilean and teemo) are in bot lane, while our mid (annie) is by blue buff and me and panth and me are near mid. The enemy team gets dragon and their udyr pops out of the river and kills teemo in botlane. We lose the team fight because we're all spread out and everyone starts yelling at me. So I'm like "This is what happens when teemo and zilean farm bottom when the enemy team is at dragon" and then they start flipping out and talking about how that never happened and they were right there in the team fight. I mean, Zilean made his way in halfway through but it was too late to do anything but ult pantheon and die immediately, leaving panthon to revive in the middle of their team and die.

So we surrender because we're down three towers and they're just pushing down mid, so Teemo and Zilean and Panth start whining about how they didn't know it was possible for a shyvana to suck that badly in the jungle. I was 2/3/2, keeping up in levels with everyone else, ganking when I could, and generally not doing too badly. They didn't make any specific complaints, I'm pretty sure because they couldn't.

Just, like, I don't even know what happened. One minute they were thanking me for ganks and being baffled at the pantheon randomly blaming me for stuff I had nothing to do with, and then the next they were joining in.

[KaelGotDwarves]

Blaming the jungler is pretty standard operation for when people suck and are looking for someone else to blame for their failures.

[Yodamaster]

Sorry for the late update guys, I fixed it now.