Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Lord Vetinari]

As far as splitting masonry into a million different pieces. I really don't see the realism in that. If you are a mason, you wouldn't spend your entire life learning how to make chairs, and block out every other mason related creation. Even if you did, there isn't much of a difference between a chair and a table.  You would be able to create a multitude of items. If you know how to make a quality table, you know how to chisel/cut stone. and likewise you can carve it into a figure, it would be slightly more difficult. But you would still be able to carry over your knowledge thus your masonry skill would still affect the statue...

I agree on this, but it could be really usefull if the construction work is separated from the other masonry.

[Reelyanoob]

Separating some jobs and skills would also make life easier. For example someone came up with an idea to separate smoothing and engraving labours, while keeping their use of stone detailing skill, or "mine ore" and "mine rock". This would be as usefull for these jobs as workshop profiling is for masons.

That could be useful, maybe.  Then we could separate the things that make a difference to the player from the things that make a difference in terms of skill.

So miner could be split into ore/gem/rock/soil, and engraving could be split into smoothing and engraving proper (both still training the same skill), while other labors could fall under the same heading, while training separate skills for the purpose of realism.

It seems needlessly complicated to have both.  Oh I have 5 miners, which one is the gem one?  Oh look smoothers and engravers they're the same thing though so It doesn't matter who does what. (Not that I hate that, I obviously want it since I suggested it earlier)

Plus I'd prefer engraving and smoothing to be different skills cause one's labor and the others art.  Then again I'm not sure if making statues should also be different. :\

Maybe have a sub-menu under mining which works like the menu for hauling, but I'd reverse the function e.g. make Enter select all options (Soil, Stone, Gem, Ore etc), and have to click Shift-Enter to go in and manually specify stuff to mine / not mine (i'd like hauling changed to work like that as well). That'd mean the system looks exactly the same for current players, but allows you to override the behavior if you feel like (eg turn on only Soil to train newbie miners without them wasting anything)

[King_of_the_weasels]

As far as splitting masonry into a million different pieces. I really don't see the realism in that. If you are a mason, you wouldn't spend your entire life learning how to make chairs, and block out every other mason related creation. Even if you did, there isn't much of a difference between a chair and a table.  You would be able to create a multitude of items. If you know how to make a quality table, you know how to chisel/cut stone. and likewise you can carve it into a figure, it would be slightly more difficult. But you would still be able to carry over your knowledge thus your masonry skill would still affect the statue...

I agree on this, but it could be really usefull if the construction work is separated from the other masonry.

and sculpting, cause that's way different and is used enough that it can be it's on skill.

[iron_general]

I think the proposed division of masonry labours could fit rather eligently with my earlier suggestion. If a mason is highly skilled in furniture building he would have a high "stoneworking skill". While he wouldn't be good at sculpting by default he would learn it much more quickly than a dwaf with no stoneworking expirience.

[King_of_the_weasels]

I think the proposed division of masonry labours could fit rather eligently with my earlier suggestion. If a mason is highly skilled in furniture building he would have a high "stoneworking skill". While he wouldn't be good at sculpting by default he would learn it much more quickly than a dwaf with no stoneworking expirience.

He would be able to reproduce easily, not necessarily create something knew.

[iron_general]

The point is because said mason is already skilled with a chisle and knows how not to make cracks appear he'd learn a new type of stoneworking much faster than a complete novice. He'd be able to "create something NEW" far faster than a novice because he'd learn faster.To exemplify, if you've carved thousands of mugs from boulders, carving a statue rather than a mug wouldn't be very different. It would still take time to learn, but far less than for one who'd never seen a chisle.

[King_of_the_weasels]

Just cause you paint wall all days means you can create a landscape.

[iron_general]

Of course, but you probablty know how to hold a brush, how not to drible paint, how to apply it evenly and maybe a bit about mixing paints. With this knowlege it will probably take less time to learn how to paint a landscape. There are obviously other factors which is why I dislike the current system in which a master "wallpainter" would be able to create a "masterwork painting" by default. Your post pretains more to the current system which my suggewstion would improve in the manner you imply.

[King_of_the_weasels]

Ha I completely missed what you were talking about, I completely agree with subskills that don't gain xp when you work on there base skill, there just simpler to learn.  Possibly an xp gain boost until they reach half of what ever there other subskill was.  So a level 6 (dabbling being level 0 I guess) carpenter could reach level 3 wood crafts (basic not going into different types for this example) in half the time, cause he knows his tools and his medium.

[iron_general]

No problem, I agree with your sugestion (xp doubles untill the dwarf reachs half the subskill).

[King_of_the_weasels]

Now all we need is a big list of skill and how they all relate to each other, any takers?

[iron_general]

It is proposed that all related skills will receive an exp modifier of 2x until its value is half as the highest skill of the group obtained by said dwarf. The '~' indicate things I'm uncertain of and they may be repeated. The skills are grouped into relative skills, this to represent the fact that many skills require similar, interchangeable skill sets. Some overlap. Groups with multiple columns indicate where I think those groups might be split. Anything in () is the modification of a skill as it is presented in the original post. '-' indicate skills that might be combined, as is proposed in the first post.

Woodworking:
   Bowyer
   carpenter
   woodcrafter
   ~Building designer
   /*all use wood carving or constructing*/

Stone working:
   mason
   engraver
   stone crafter
   ~Mining
   Knapper
   ~Building designer
   /*these include stone carving or constructing, I included mining because it involves exploiting weakness or following the "grain" of the stone, which I imagine would be useful in masonry.*/

Construction
   Building designing
   Carpentry
   Masonry
   /*all involve construction*/

Doctor 
      Bone doctor
   Diagnostician
   Surgeon
   Suturer
   Wound dresser
   /*some of these are rather loosely connected, but I think a big part of being a doctor is a) some knowledge of  anatomy and b) working under stress or with gore, blood etc. which are a part of all these tasks/skills*/

Engineer 
     Mechanic
   ~Pump operator
   -Siege engineer
   -Siege operator
    /*all these involve working with or building mechanisms*/

Ranger/animalworking
   Animal caretaker    Ambusher
   Animal trainer   Fisherdwarf
   Trapper
   Beekeeper
   Shearer
   Milker
                (Animal Processing - Milking, cheese making, shearing, spinning, -beekeeping)
   /*all these task require a knowledge of animal behaviour*/

chemistry like stuff
   Tanner
   Soaper
   Alchemist
   Potash maker
   Lye maker
   Dyer
                (Wood Burning - Includes Wood burning, potash making, and lye making)
   ~Brewer
/*all these professions deal with some form of chemistry, I'm no expert in these areas so I imagine this will need some work.*/

plant processer
   miller
   thresher
   presser
   ~cheese maker
   ~cook
   /*tasks that process plants*/

growing
   grower
   herbalist
   /*Everything the herbalist finds in farmable, a farmer would    probably recognize what he grows, and both would know where/what sort of environment different plants grow in*/

meat processing
   fish cleaner
      -fish dissector
   Butcher
                 -Animal dissector
   ~bone carver

Metalsmith 
      Armorsmith
   Furnace operator
   Metal crafter
   Metalsmith
   Weaponsmith
   /*all require knowledge of metallurgy and how to operate a    furnace*/

Jeweler 
      Gem cutter
   Gem setter
   Strand extractor
   /*gem stuff, precision, cutting and the like.*/

Textile worker   
   spinning   clothier
   weaving    leather worker
    ~dyeing
   /*sewing and cloth making. This might be split as the columns indicate*/

Admin.
   organize
   book keeper
   appraiser

Broker 
     Comedian
   Conversationalist
   Flatterer
   Intimidator
   Judge of intent
   Liar
   Negotiator
   Persuader

mêlée skills
   Fighter

Ranged attacks
   Archer

Social
   Concentration
   Consoler
   Leader
   Observer
   Pacifier
   Student
   Teacher
 
Broker 
     Comedian
   Conversationalist
   Flatterer
   Intimidator
   Judge of intent
   Liar
   Negotiator
   Persuader

Crafting
   Bone carving
   Glassmaking
   Stone crafting
   Wood crafting
   pottery
   /*the materials are very different as is the construction, but all these tasks create very similar items*/

Wood cutting, glazing and wax working cutting leave me at a loss.

List of current skills: http://df.magmawiki.com/index.php/Skills




      

[King_of_the_weasels]

I wasn't serious about the list, also you didn't really add anything, or really split up tasks.  Like a cooper would know how to work with wood, but spends all of his time on barrels and bins so he can build them fast, but he'd have an easier time learning to build a wooden cabinet then a peasant, but possibly only the same amount a skill as a mason who makes furniture?

[iron_general]

Well then...
Most of the skills are rather general, so they don't need much regrouping. I didn't want to split every skill until the more general ones were discussed. Though I guess the point is moot.

[King_of_the_weasels]

I really shouldn't be talking cause if I was to make the list, I'd be like.  Okay time to make this list awesome.  Going to add coopers and stuff yeah!  OH GOD WHERE DO I START?! 

Then insanity.

I guess there would be no base skills.  All skills would just be related to others.  So I'd start by listing everything that can be done in dwarf fortress, and assigning them skills.  Then making a network of skills that are related and by how.  Then of course there's future skills to take into account, like when foodstuffs gets fleshed out and baking actually becomes a thing.  but then at that point you don't know whether or not your actually taking into account stuff that would be in the game, and you may be missing stuff that would be.

And I'm rambling.