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[IT 000]

Currently, there are several jobs that produce a no-quality product or seem superfluous. The Farming menu is the biggest example. We have...

Butcher, tanner, farming, dying, soap making, wood burning, potash making, lye making, milling, brewing, plant gathering, plant processing, cheese making, milking, shearing, spinning, cooking pressing, and beekeeping.

Now the problem is that many of these reactions produce a no quality item. Meaning a dabbling cheese maker is the same as a high master. What's worse is that it takes away from the possibility of getting something useful. Assuming that every job has the same chance of showing up on a migrant, you are more likely to get a useless cannon fodder farmer then a useful competent mason.

Additionally it is a hassle to handle. I don't care which of my farmers milk the cow, it's just milk. So I propose that the job labors are looked over again, not only in farming, but elsewhere. Then they can be simplified down. Especially jobs that may only have one or two uses.

My ideas for the new simplified list is.

-Butchery
-Tanning
-Planting
-Soap Making
-Wood Burning - Includes Wood burning, potash making, and lye making
-Dyeing
-Plant Gathering
-Plant Processing - milling, plant processing, pressing
-Animal Processing - Milking, cheese making, shearing, spinning, -beekeeping.
-Cooking - Cooking and Brewing.

Presto, 19 jobs is cut down to to just ten jobs.

Yes, there is a difference between milling and pressing, or cheese making and milking. In all likely hood, farmers would know how to do both jobs, especially before 1400's. Cooking is separate because it actually produces a quality item.

Additionally,

-The fish dissector is only used on one vermin, moghoppers, and most of the time you do not have it. surely you can use the fish cleaning job for this.
- Siege Engineering, and operating, two different things on paper, but in practice, how can you build a siege engine if you don't know how it was fired? Likewise, you've spent so much time around siege weapons observing their primitive mechanics and structure, how hard can it be to build one? These two can be combined.
- Pump operating can be down in the 'Other' section. There is no need to have Urist McPump operator wandering around.
- Small animal dissection? Cut open an animal, study it's insides, sounds close enough butchery.

This idea will provide several advantages.

1 Useful migrants have a better chance of showing up.
2 Easier interface. 19 to 10, seems simpler.
3 More skilled migrants. Because of the simplified jobs, a skilled Animal Processor can produce more jobs quicker.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Further simplifying?

[Babylon]

I like this except for one thing.  I would keep brewer and cook separate.  These are both jobs that produce a quality item and are jobs that many people would prefer to keep a specific dwarf focused on rather than two dwarves doing both jobs.

[Jeoshua]

I third this idea, with the addition that "Animal Processing" should be called "Animal Husbandry", and subsume "Animal Caretaker" as well.

Animal Training is good where it is.

[Aramco]

Yes, I there is a difference

What?

I agree with the idea, but I agree with Babylon that cooking and brewing should be kept seperate.

[IT 000]

Yes, I there is a difference

What?

Sorry, typing a tad fast. I was in a rush.  Fixed now.

I agree with the idea, but I agree with Babylon that cooking and brewing should be kept separate.
[/quote]

Well I would support this, brewing and cooking was one of the more hazing areas.

Now the following jobs I would like to stick into groups. But I'm not quite sure what they would go under.

Strand Extraction - Weaving perhaps.
Animal Caretaking - First it has to actually have a use. But I liked Jeoshua's idea of Animal Husbandry.

[sockless]

Doesn't higher farming make more crops and high plant gathering increase the chance of finding plants?

Cooking and Brewing produce quality, but for booze it isn't shown.

I do like the idea for wood burning, since we don't do much wood burning let alone lye and potash making.

We should have quality levels for cheese in my opinion, so that should be different. Maybe milking and cheese making could be combined.

Dying and tanning should have quality levels too.

I do support milling and plant processing being together, but pressing is also used for honey production.

Fish dissecting is one of the skills that hasn't really been implemented yet and is just sitting there, so is animal caretaker and small animal dissection.

The two siege skills should be different though, as operating things and making things are 2 very different skills.

Pump operating is also a bit of a white elephant. IMO, it should be tied to strength, so that the stronger you are, the more you can pump and maybe endurance would increase duration you can pump for. These attributes would go up as you operated pumps. But pump operating would still be needed to choose who to operate pumps. I do agree with moving it to misc. as well.

[Babylon]

Doesn't higher farming make more crops and high plant gathering increase the chance of finding plants?

Cooking and Brewing produce quality, but for booze it isn't shown.

I do like the idea for wood burning, since we don't do much wood burning let alone lye and potash making.

We should have quality levels for cheese in my opinion, so that should be different. Maybe milking and cheese making could be combined.

Dying and tanning should have quality levels too.

I do support milling and plant processing being together, but pressing is also used for honey production.

Fish dissecting is one of the skills that hasn't really been implemented yet and is just sitting there, so is animal caretaker and small animal dissection.

The two siege skills should be different though, as operating things and making things are 2 very different skills.

Pump operating is also a bit of a white elephant. IMO, it should be tied to strength, so that the stronger you are, the more you can pump and maybe endurance would increase duration you can pump for. These attributes would go up as you operated pumps. But pump operating would still be needed to choose who to operate pumps. I do agree with moving it to misc. as well.

I burn a lot of wood.  Personally I'd like to see it as part of Furnace operating though.

[Catastrophic lolcats]

There will always be either people for this or against this. Either you have only a few skills which overlap a wide variety of jobs or you have a crap load of them (aka Eve). Finding a balance between the two extremes is almost impossible.

Even if the balance is found there will always be a debate between those that want a simplified "gamey" skill set and people who want a "realistic" skill set.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing either, as long as they're not too overly complex and painful. If the "realistic" path is chosen I would prefer if skills had to cross over for jobs, and to have the ability manage labour much easier.

[Jeoshua]

I think there should deffinitely be alot of crossover.  How is it possible to have a person who is both Legendary as a Mason and and Engraver, yet cannot do Stonecrafting any better than Dabbling?

[Uristocrat]

I third this idea, with the addition that "Animal Processing" should be called "Animal Husbandry", and subsume "Animal Caretaker" as well.

Animal Training is good where it is.

I like the idea with this addition, as well as keeping cooking & brewing separate.

[King_of_the_weasels]

Then there's the whole sub-skills debate, like cooper being a sub-skill of carpenter.  I'd personally like to "see" more jobs, but that would be a hassle to deal with, so possibly depending on what they do the most would be there "job title" while a rancher would be a basic job for someone who takes care of animals, a milker would have the same skills, but he milks more then he does anything else, while a cheese maker (sure theres a better title) would be someone who makes cheese more then they milk, shear, or whatever.  Shepards would be shearers, and spinner should be part of the weaving family.

[Captain Mayday]

You could always just gain, at a markedly slower rate, skills that are related to the one being performed.

[King_of_the_weasels]

People have already argued how making subskills separate "leveled" skills, is to unrealistic, its either got to be all subskills are simple flavor texts based on what they do the most, or each subskill is actually just a skill.

Well not really, I just don't want this to turn into another one of THOSE threads were people bicker about how making a 100 steel chains shouldn't make you better at making a copper cabinet.

[Maklak]

Lots of good suggestions in here.

There will always be either people for this or against this. Either you have only a few skills which overlap a wide variety of jobs or you have a crap load of them (aka Eve). Finding a balance between the two extremes is almost impossible. [...]

My thoughts exactly.

I agree there are currently too many skills of little use, and their number should be trimmed. Cooking and Brewing should remain separate - mainly because they are so important. Animal husbangry is a better name than Animal Processing.

Furnance operating += Wood Burning
Soap Making += Lye Making + Potash Making

I also like training similar skills (maybe 1/10 the XP), but there is a possible downside: wrong skill for strange moods. Also, there would be some debate over what skills are related, and how much.

Separating some jobs and skills would also make life easier. For example someone came up with an idea to separate smoothing and engraving labours, while keeping their use of stone detailing skill, or "mine ore" and "mine rock". This would be as usefull for these jobs as workshop profiling is for masons.

[Uristocrat]

Separating some jobs and skills would also make life easier. For example someone came up with an idea to separate smoothing and engraving labours, while keeping their use of stone detailing skill, or "mine ore" and "mine rock". This would be as usefull for these jobs as workshop profiling is for masons.

That could be useful, maybe.  Then we could separate the things that make a difference to the player from the things that make a difference in terms of skill.

So miner could be split into ore/gem/rock/soil, and engraving could be split into smoothing and engraving proper (both still training the same skill), while other labors could fall under the same heading, while training separate skills for the purpose of realism.