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[GlyphGryph]

I consider all instances of dictatorships in this world to be news worthy. Especially when there is an ongoing civil war due to their treatment of citizenry. I never avoided that question. I'm curious why the Syrian civil war is specifically non-important.

O... k... this still has nothing to do with his question or my follow up, but it is a thing that I understand and that you have made clear.

It is now crystal clear that Assad has crossed the moral event horizon and severed any connection to basic human decency, and we can no longer ignore that.

That there remained anyone on the forum for whom Assad has not crossed the moral event horizon is what it is news to me. I thought we all agreed on this several atrocities ago, is the thing.

[Helgoland]

There's people arguing he should stay in power...

[XXSockXX]

Depends whom you hear talk about it. A big part of the population, especially religious minorities like Alevites and Christians still support him. Since the opposition, or at least part of them, doesn't behave much better than Assad, it is pretty difficult to tell who should be supported.

[GlyphGryph]

The "opposition" is far from a monolithic entity, though.

I imagine its newsworthy for those who still (for some reason) support Assad staying in power, (if they care, which I imagine they don't). I just don't see this particular issue swaying anyone who was on one side or the other, and there seems to be rather few left on the fence (and also, I clearly wasn't following this thread closely enough, because I didn't know people here were actually advocating Assad should be in power so much as questioning whether we can or should do anything about it, which is a quite different question)

[XXSockXX]

Oh yeah, in case that wasn't clear, I'm aware there are plenty of different opposition groups. I don't think anyone here is defending Assad. I personally am sceptic about intervention for a variety of reasons, but it's clear that Assad has crossed the moral event horizon a long time ago.

Most of what I know about people supporting Assad comes from reports and interviews with refugees, who support whoever they think is better for their own ethnic and/or religious group.

[PTTG??]

So apparently we're on the eve of major problems in the Ukraine. The popular opinion is in favor of EU representation; the government cracked down on protest against closer ties to Russia instead.

When this all started, I entertained the hope that there would be some substantial change for the better.I originally believed that civilization is a steady climb where increasing material comfort gradually increases education, which in turn increases participation in governance, which in turn increases personal freedoms, which finally closes the cycle by increasing the economic output of a nation, all this aided by sudden clashes in which the advancing lower classes overthrow the previous power structure and establish an incrementally superior one.

I still dearly wish to believe that, and perhaps it's true to some extent, but it seems more like civilization is chaos. Essentially random changes occur. Very, very rarely, a powerful group establishes an ideology which stands the test of time. More rarely still, it is a humane one. The western revolutions of the 1700-1800s were privileged only in that the random actors that established them shared some positive beliefs.

Bah. It's too late at night. Things will look better in the morning. Obviously SOMETHING favors humane governments; there is an undeniable trend... when you consider all of history. The endless bloodshed we see today is just a rounding error in history. Perhaps that's the optimistic side of things.

[Digital Hellhound]

The Ukraine situation's already heavily featured in the European Megathread. I wouldn't split the discussion like this.

[10ebbor10]

Yeah, keep the discussion there please.

On a side note, the situation in Ukraine has long passed the point where this is about the EU.

[Helgoland]

German media reported the EU is thinking about sanctions - let's vote: Who thinks they'll accomplish something?

[kaian-a-coel]

I originally believed that civilization is a steady climb where increasing material comfort gradually increases education, which in turn increases participation in governance, which in turn increases personal freedoms, which finally closes the cycle by increasing the economic output of a nation, all this aided by sudden clashes in which the advancing lower classes overthrow the previous power structure and establish an incrementally superior one.

Civilization is three steps forward, two steps back. Rinse and repeat.
We're currently taking the second step backward I believe.

German media reported the EU is thinking about sanctions - let's vote: Who thinks they'll accomplish something?

Not me. Sterns words at best but that doesn't count as actually doing something.

[Zangi]

When this all started, I entertained the hope that there would be some substantial change for the better.I originally believed that civilization is a steady climb where increasing material comfort gradually increases education, which in turn increases participation in governance, which in turn increases personal freedoms, which finally closes the cycle by increasing the economic output of a nation, all this aided by sudden clashes in which the advancing lower classes overthrow the previous power structure and establish an incrementally superior one.

Comfort increasing education?  Uhh... yea...
And... that is really not how capitalism works.  (I don't know what economic system Ukraine uses.)

[Sheb]

I think he meant wealth. As people and countries get richer, they can afford to fund better education systems.

[Dutchling]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Helgoland]

That should go in the happy thread.

[Dutchling]

Wups, wrong thread. Was aiming for the European thread