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[MetalSlimeHunt]

Well, that's the whole problem, isn't it? Ending legal oppression by religion is far easier than ending cultural oppression by religion. The latter can ultimately only be changed by changing the public mindset.

[misko27]

So I've been out for a week, and the Egypt appears to have been a busy place for News.


Other then the obvious part of Morsi being ousted, what is going on? What is the military doing, how are the Rioters reacting, et cetera?

[Willfor]

-misread what was being said, sorry.-

[Sheb]

shadenight, I'm pretty sure stoning people to death or forcibly deporting them is banned under the italian law code. So yeah, it is banned, doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it's banned already.

[shadenight123]

Yes, it's banned. However the problem was more aptly subtle. How can you tell the difference between 'Following the law' and 'Following the Sharia law'?
Unless they actually stone someone to death and bury the body, you can't.
Meaning that somewhere, in Italy to keep up the example, there is a young girl who is forced to follow a rule that sees her as nothing more than cattle.
And that is wrong. But she can't speak, because she's a child let's say, or she doesn't believe her father will actually kill her for disobeying.

Maybe she could be speaking of it with her classmates, or with her teachers, but they might simply ignore her or try and talk with her father because 'she's a kid' or similar. Thus, they ignore the problem. Instead of saying 'Prohibit stoning or deportation' simply Prohibit Sharia. Once That is done, those who oppose said law are easily revealed as Sharia believers, and they can be safely deported for having broken the UN/Nato laws on equality treatments.
We are all born equal, and like equals we should all be treated.

[Sheb]

Well, but if you ban Shariah law explicitly, how does it help at all? How do you prov that father was following Shariah law, and not just being an ass? He won't say it.

No, if you dislike a comportment, the way to go is not to ban some vague concept that may or may not correspond to what you want to see disappear. You ban the comportment. This means not only the stoning and cutting of hands, but also the fathers trying to force marriage or sequestrating people home.

Of course, these laws are hard to enforce, but "banning shariah", won't help at all.

[scriver]

Yes, it's banned. However the problem was more aptly subtle. How can you tell the difference between 'Following the law' and 'Following the Sharia law'?
Unless they actually stone someone to death and bury the body, you can't.
Meaning that somewhere, in Italy to keep up the example, there is a young girl who is forced to follow a rule that sees her as nothing more than cattle.
And that is wrong. But she can't speak, because she's a child let's say, or she doesn't believe her father will actually kill her for disobeying.

Maybe she could be speaking of it with her classmates, or with her teachers, but they might simply ignore her or try and talk with her father because 'she's a kid' or similar. Thus, they ignore the problem. Instead of saying 'Prohibit stoning or deportation' simply Prohibit Sharia. Once That is done, those who oppose said law are easily revealed as Sharia believers, and they can be safely deported for having broken the UN/Nato laws on equality treatments.
We are all born equal, and like equals we should all be treated.

I'm pretty certain what you are trying to get at is the honour tradition, not Sharia - I am not entirely sure, though, because your post was really vague. Anyway, prohibiting Sharia wouldn't do shit against the honour tradition, because it's a cultural thing, not religious - Christians from the region does it just as much as Muslims.

[shadenight123]

So, in your opinion, what would work to stop Honor tradition / comportments of fathers?
What actions should be taken to prevent certain things from happening, or at least to have some ways of finding them out sooner rather than when you already have a corpse in your hands or the girl has left the nation's borders?
School hours dedicated to it? Training cops to identify the signs?

[scriver]

Well, first of all, it's not the fathers any more than it is the mothers, and most often the actual pressure comes from the extended family.

Secondly, investing in women's shelters and other such and educating young women about that these places exist and why they exist, encouraging young people to find an identity that isn't directly connected to their family, providing ways (ie, money) so that women aren't in a position of dependence to their family (which is what in many situations prevents abused people from leaving). Generally feminist things, but there's also the legal side - making sure witness protection services actually works and that restraining orders actually keep people away, making sure there is a legal response when people feel threatened, and making sure that crimes against women - and not just the target group for honour crimes, but all women - are actually being taken serious by the police force.

Much the same would go for young men - It is very often the brothers that get settled with the task of "correcting" their sisters, or at the very least taking the legal blame for the crime, regardless of whether they think there has been anything wrong or dishonourable done. They also need to find an identity disconnected from the family, so that they have a stronger ability to resist when the whole mountain of family disapproval comes bearing down on them; and likewise, investing in their ability to create lives of their own (it's much easier to fight back if you don't live in the same house or eat food they paid for), especially in Italy, where I believe young people already have economical problems with leaving the nest, if I remember correctly Italy is the European country where people stay with their parents the longest. I figure you might want to engage them on the ethical/moral/philosophical level as well but that pretty much go under "find your own identity" in my book.

Finally, training people of different occupations to identify signs might be a good idea (cops in particular wouldn't be able to see much, though, unless Italy has police that interact with the same people and neighbourhoods on a regular basis; they just wouldn't see people often enough to have a chance to identify anything), but these things, like all kinds of abuse, generally aren't very obvious. It isn't a thing you can just ban away, though, it's not as easy as that (and certainly no by banning sharia, they're only connected by how they're both patriarchal systems - in some places in the middle East you'll find the Muslim Church Mosque being the main, or even only, fighter against the honour tradition) or we would have made such laws to ban oppressive sects and the like a long time ago. You can ban the actual harmful and violent actions, but you can't criminalize the harmful and repressive mindset. That change has to come from within each person themselves - until then, we just have to do what we can for the victims, and make it easier for people to escape from such oppressive families.

[ChairmanPoo]

School hours dedicated to it? Training cops to identify the signs?

Probably. It's not like these kind of attitudes are legal to begin with. Regardless of whether it's based on honor codes or traditional religious law, there should be no need to specifically ban stuff that is already illegal to begin with. You need the existing laws to be enforced, not more sterile paperwork.

[LordSlowpoke]

MEANWHILE, IN SYRIA

i couldn't help but think "The Kingdom of Syria has passed into the Medieval Age." after having watched this

apparently this is symbolic too? i'm not enough of an expert to find symbolism in this

...is this the advanced weaponry the us has been sending? =w=

[Sergarr]

I wonder what was that thing they've fired. And also how many people it killed.

[Helgoland]

Pretty much a molotov cocktail, I guess - a primitive weapon, and one that has to be lit on fire before, well, firing.

But I guess this shows how damn determined those rebels are - even if Assad managed to confiscate every last firearm, they'd probably keep fighting with their hands and feet.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

It is not all that surprising that the country is starting to run low on conventional weaponry after two years of fighting. Only so many bullets.

[misko27]

MEANWHILE, IN SYRIA

i couldn't help but think "The Kingdom of Syria has passed into the Medieval Age." after having watched this

apparently this is symbolic too? i'm not enough of an expert to find symbolism in this

...is this the advanced weaponry the us has been sending? =w=

A symbol? Yes. Anachronism stew.

It is not all that surprising that the country is starting to run low on conventional weaponry after two years of fighting. Only so many bullets.

It's one of those places where things would go Middle ages (Or renaissance) if the great powers (Like Rome did) fell completely. It's advanced in several ways, but not to the point where things are self-sustaining.


Also, I heard some rebels make their own bullets. So there's that.