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[Retro]

I don't much understand why the imagined ideal solution is "PURGE THE UNCLEAN!" instead of just not bothering with things you don't find worthwhile.

While I understand your point, I want to stress that the points I'm making in the OP are not to simply purge and destroy things. I'd just like to encourage people to move towards starting threads with more constructive purposes or at least that in turn encourage more constructive posting. I'm not at all trying to wipe anything and start over.

[G-Flex]

"Ignore the stuff you don't find worthwhile" works for the world in general. It doesn't work for a private establishment (including a webforum) that exists for purposes and with rules defined by the owner/proprietor. This isn't our forum and no single person here decides what does or doesn't belong. What we can do is analyze what goes on here, how it suits the reasons this forum exists, and its goals, and where the situation might need improving.

I don't think anybody here is saying that things should be removed, disallowed, or discouraged just because they personally aren't interested in them or don't care. If they are, that's a tad silly, but I can say that personally, that's not what I'm saying at all. I think any decisions regarding what is/isn't allowed (and these decisions have already been made in the past and are made implicitly by the fact that this forum isn't for literally anything and everything; there's nothing new or even particularly interesting going on if the rules are made a little more restrictive than they were before) should be made based on what kind of community and atmosphere Toady wants the forums to engender, what purpose he wants it to serve, and how to encourage that happening. Unpopular decisions might have to be made, or popular ones, or none at all.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

...purposes and with rules defined by the owner/proprietor.

And you're neither of those.

I don't think anybody here is saying that things should be removed, disallowed, or discouraged just because they personally aren't interested in them or don't care.

That's exactly what a good percentage of the people in this thread have been saying. Didn't you spend something like the first dozen pages of this thread arguing that you think forum games should be deleted, because you don't see any point to it? Or do you just mean that your reasons were super special and totally not "just because [you] don't find something worthwhile"?

I don't much understand why the imagined ideal solution is "PURGE THE UNCLEAN!" instead of just not bothering with things you don't find worthwhile.

While I understand your point, I want to stress that the points I'm making in the OP are not to simply purge and destroy things. I'd just like to encourage people to move towards starting threads with more constructive purposes or at least that in turn encourage more constructive posting. I'm not at all trying to wipe anything and start over.

The only reason I chose that quote was because hyperbole and humorous Warhammer 40K quote. Which also happened to reflect the spirit a lot of people are speaking in, that anything they don't find interesting or worth reading should be excised because simply not bothering to read a thread that you don't find interesting is somehow an unthinkable imposition on them.

You know what, I shall proceed to demonstrate just how easy it is not to read all those threads that I'm not interested in (including all those that people are complaining about), by not reading all those threads that I'm not interested in.





See? I'm not reading them, and couldn't give less of a shit whether they exist or not.


And before someone makes some snarky comment about "then why am I reading this thread then?": I do find this interesting. I just so happen to be disgusted by the attitude that anyone who happens to not do things that you personally find relevant or valuable should be reformed or removed. There are people I don't like, there are people I merely disagree with, and I wouldn't dream of insisting that "people like them" be removed (except for Urist is dead tome, because poor quality troll is poor quality; trolls should at least have the decency to be creative like Pathos was).

[LordNagash]

...purposes and with rules defined by the owner/proprietor.

And you're neither of those.

I don't think anybody here is saying that things should be removed, disallowed, or discouraged just because they personally aren't interested in them or don't care.

That's exactly what a good percentage of the people in this thread have been saying. Didn't you spend something like the first dozen pages of this thread arguing that you think forum games should be deleted, because you don't see any point to it? Or do you just mean that your reasons were super special and totally not "just because [you] don't find something worthwhile"?

I notice you didn't actually address G-Flex's points here, just pointed out that he doesn't own the forums (not at all helpful) and then dismissed the rest of his post with a misrepresentation of his earlier argument (for the record, his argument was that forum games and roleplaying don't have anything to do with Dwarf Fortress or Bay 12 Games and so he's unsure why it exists as a subforum. Not that he personally disapproves of it or is not interested and thus it should be deleted)

Ignoring what you're not interested in is fine, but that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about making more clear what is and is not allowed on the forums and establishing an expected code of behaviour that can then be effectively moderated, not 'I hate x and so I want it gone forever!'

[Phmcw]

Well, who are the "wrong crowd" and what does they do?
The happy and sad thread are pretty much populated by the forum's veteran, and concerning the "wrong atmosphere", I notice a distinct lack of permeability between the board.

[sonerohi]

Well, speaking personally, I would say the 'wrong crowd' is, and no offense because I actually like you two, just not all the time, Realmfighter and MerchantofMenace. One can count in seconds just how quickly a thread derails and turns into sex jokes and animu's once they bring it in, and it is very hard to re-rail. There is nothing wrong with what they are saying, but it is often very out of place, and it is hard to become civil again without cracking down.

[Lord Shonus]

...purposes and with rules defined by the owner/proprietor.

And you're neither of those.

I don't think anybody here is saying that things should be removed, disallowed, or discouraged just because they personally aren't interested in them or don't care.

That's exactly what a good percentage of the people in this thread have been saying. Didn't you spend something like the first dozen pages of this thread arguing that you think forum games should be deleted, because you don't see any point to it? Or do you just mean that your reasons were super special and totally not "just because [you] don't find something worthwhile"?

I notice you didn't actually address G-Flex's points here, just pointed out that he doesn't own the forums (not at all helpful) and then dismissed the rest of his post with a misrepresentation of his earlier argument (for the record, his argument was that forum games and roleplaying don't have anything to do with Dwarf Fortress or Bay 12 Games and so he's unsure why it exists as a subforum. Not that he personally disapproves of it or is not interested and thus it should be deleted)

Ignoring what you're not interested in is fine, but that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about making more clear what is and is not allowed on the forums and establishing an expected code of behaviour that can then be effectively moderated, not 'I hate x and so I want it gone forever!'

G-flex has been leading a vendetta against the lower forums for months, trying to get them deleted.

[iceball3]

Well, speaking personally, I would say the 'wrong crowd' is, and no offense because I actually like you two, just not all the time, Realmfighter and MerchantofMenace. One can count in seconds just how quickly a thread derails and turns into sex jokes and animu's once they bring it in, and it is very hard to re-rail. There is nothing wrong with what they are saying, but it is often very out of place, and it is hard to become civil again without cracking down.

Are you sure the wrong crowd is not the ones stumbling all over themselves when people like them two make posts?

[FuzzyZergling]

Realmfighter is my favorite forumite, no joke.

[sonerohi]

I like Realmfighter. He's pretty funny. But he destroys trains.

[Leafsnail]

Hey, do you know what I think the forum shouldn't have?

Personal attacks on users.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

...purposes and with rules defined by the owner/proprietor.

And you're neither of those.

I don't think anybody here is saying that things should be removed, disallowed, or discouraged just because they personally aren't interested in them or don't care.

That's exactly what a good percentage of the people in this thread have been saying. Didn't you spend something like the first dozen pages of this thread arguing that you think forum games should be deleted, because you don't see any point to it? Or do you just mean that your reasons were super special and totally not "just because [you] don't find something worthwhile"?

I notice you didn't actually address G-Flex's points here, just pointed out that he doesn't own the forums (not at all helpful) and then dismissed the rest of his post with a misrepresentation of his earlier argument (for the record, his argument was that forum games and roleplaying don't have anything to do with Dwarf Fortress or Bay 12 Games and so he's unsure why it exists as a subforum. Not that he personally disapproves of it or is not interested and thus it should be deleted)

And what does arguing that he doesn't see the point and insisting that perhaps "we" don't want the "sort" it draws in mean, then? That he loves it and was just playing the devil's advocate? There's not all that many ways you can interpret what he said.

Ignoring what you're not interested in is fine, but that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about making more clear what is and is not allowed on the forums and establishing an expected code of behaviour that can then be effectively moderated, not 'I hate x and so I want it gone forever!'

It is? All I've seen is people lamenting how things aren't like they were "back in the good ol' days," and insinuating that it's all certain people's fault, and everyone else (which sadly appears a minority in this case) calling them out on their bullshit.


Things aren't "degenerating" or any such nonsense, they're more or less exactly the same as they were when I joined more than a year ago. We've lost people, some good, some bad, and gained others, some good, and some bad. That's how things go, and bitching about some intangible changes that are totally real and major and all X's fault is just offensive and silly, no matter how you look at it.

[Sowelu]

Naming names is going to utterly annihilate this thread, and is probably the fastest way to get it locked.  I would highly recommend keeping THAT particular stuff to yourself.

[Phmcw]

Yes, by "who" I mean what are the traits common to the group of poeple you don't like , and by the "what" I meant how does it affect you/the forum in a negative way.

How did toady phrase that? "please amplify your relaxed sate" ?

[Chaoswizkid]

I imagine there is value to be had to the candidness and less editorial nature of the happy/sad threads. I don't know, though, as I've never been in them. But from things said here, its obvious some people see a line between whats acceptable here and there, in a silly thread or a serious one - I guess the problem is that there are kind of those two extremes and people have difficulty with middle ground, and there are those who don't really get the difference?

I don't really know, though.

That sounds like some root of the problem: There's just not enough serious discussion, and oftentimes when a serious discussion is trying to work out it just devolves into flame-wars, stupidity, de-railing, 'lulz', and then gets locked/deleted.
That part I especially dislike. I'd really love to have a political/religious argument without it getting crazy.

You do realize how extremely, extremely, extremely easy it is to ignore threads you don't like or find interesting? I somehow manage to get by while ignoring about 99% of the threads started on the forums as a whole. I only bother checking other games and general discussion, and don't bother reading anything that's title doesn't interest me at all. That includes the threads people are complaining about (as far as I can tell), because their titles generally amount to uninteresting gibberish. I don't much understand why the imagined ideal solution is "PURGE THE UNCLEAN!" instead of just not bothering with things you don't find worthwhile.

That's sort of avoiding the argument here. The problem I've seen most people have is that the quality isn't that good, and there's a lot of things devolving from intelligent conversation. Sure, there's some threads which are obviously silly, but that silliness does tend to spill out across the board. I've seen it, I've participated in it, if only because it seemed like everyone was doing it so there was no attached stigma.

Sure, everyone can ignore uninteresting threads, just like we can ignore the homeless begging for money on the side of the road. Ignoring it doesn't fix the problem. You're not proposing a solution, or at least you're not understanding the problem.

And before you jump on me with "BUT YOU CAN JUST IGNORE IT", I do ignore a lot of threads. The threads I ignore aren't the point, it's the threads a lot of people see devolving into trash, or being trash to start with.
That said, I don't think the Happy/Sad threads are trash, or are even turning into trash. A lot of people have posted on there about serious problems/glorious events in their lives. It's also REALLY hard to derail because people just pop in and post about their days, so a lot of silliness can get by because the purpose of the thread remains intact. Maybe the fact that people don't know that about the Happy/Sad threads cause them to dislike that. That, and "[:3]" and "MEW", which no one will 'get' unless you're into the culture.

I'm going to say that a content-less post, or one that people cannot see the point of without outside explanation, qualifies. This includes posting absolutely nothing but an image (especially without any sort of context), and two or three word ALL CAPS LOL RANDUM posts that have nothing to do with anything but effectively the first words to come into your mind. There are forumites who do almost nothing but this and it encourages others to join in.

This is the sort of problem that you're not addressing Sir Pseudonymous. Ignoring people who reply on threads you've already posted on or care about with nonsense or derailment is difficult to do.

All I've seen is people lamenting how things aren't like they were "back in the good ol' days," and insinuating that it's all certain people's fault, and everyone else (which sadly appears a minority in this case) calling them out on their bullshit.

Actually a lot of that discussion was supposition on my end. I think there was only a bit of talk about it by the people who actually feel bad about the forums. There's far more discussion on board moderators (which is over) rather than "Oh everything sucks now compared to X-years ago."

Things aren't "degenerating" or any such nonsense, they're more or less exactly the same as they were when I joined more than a year ago.

Maybe it was a problem more than a year ago and never got fixed. I agree that I don't think things are "degenerating", though I believe so because the community itself is evolving. There just seem to be inherent problems we should talk about here, rather than "It's the end of times for the forums," which, admittedly, did yield some debate.


@G-Flex, I'd just like to say that I understand your point on forum games & roleplaying: It has little to nothing to do with DF. However, the Bay12Forums is more of a community than just a development forum. The boards that don't seem to have any connection to DF supplement the community itself, because a good portion of the community enjoys forum games & roleplaying. Sure, they could go off-site, but that detracts from the purpose of having the close-knit community. If those boards were deleting, locked up, etc., then there would be a lot less activity. Maybe that's what you want, but a large point you try to make is that it's Toady's community. Remember that Toady made those boards to supplement the community spawning around his game. It also doesn't hurt that the community itself gets a lot of attention. It draws people in, and you may not like those people, but there's always a chance it could end up with a donation to Toady.