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Author Topic: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim  (Read 266026 times)

Scaraban

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #2370 on: July 28, 2011, 04:04:54 am »

Wonderful paraphrasing. I never called you an idiot before, but now hopefully you can sense my condescending tone when I say you sure are swell at everything you put your mind to; Why someday maybe you can be a big shot lawyer and take all these video game corporations down for designing features that don't work perfectly on every possible machine configuration.
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Vibhor

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #2371 on: July 28, 2011, 04:06:38 am »

Wonderful paraphrasing. I never called you an idiot before, but now hopefully you can sense my condescending tone when I say you sure are swell at everything you put your mind to; Why someday maybe you can be a big shot lawyer and take all these video game corporations down for designing features that don't work perfectly on every possible machine configuration.

Suddenly its my fault that the company doesn't do QA. Obsidian must be proud of you.
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Scaraban

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #2372 on: July 28, 2011, 04:10:55 am »

Oh wow they don't do QA? That changes everything... That means they must be fucking incredible at first-drafts. I mean holy shit, I normally revise a post at least once before putting it up on an indie-game forum that is frequented by under 10,000 people, but these guys are pushing out something that is going mainstream all over the world to literally millions with no QA? That's some hardcore shit.
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Vibhor

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #2373 on: July 28, 2011, 04:16:20 am »

Oh wow they don't do QA? That changes everything... That means they must be fucking incredible at first-drafts. I mean holy shit, I normally revise a post at least once before putting it up on an indie-game forum that is frequented by under 10,000 people, but these guys are pushing out something that is going mainstream all over the world to literally millions with no QA? That's some hardcore shit.

You really haven't played Fallout NV have you?
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Scaraban

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #2374 on: July 28, 2011, 04:19:15 am »

I like pretending things over the internet.

You mad, bro?

I didn't think we were being serious after the first exchange. That's why I started getting silly. I was actually chuckling to myself for most of those posts about your potential response, and then you found me out.

Well played, adversary, well played.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 04:28:53 am by Scaraban »
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Lysabild

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #2375 on: July 28, 2011, 04:33:18 am »

Just coming by to say I completed both Oblivion and Fallout 3 with all add ons and no crashes and I can only remember 2-3 quests that bugged that I could fix with the console.
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Leatra

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #2376 on: July 28, 2011, 05:58:54 am »

I played Oblivion and Morrowind on my old laptop and I don't remember having crash problems with the autosave and quicksave functions. Mods were unnecessary, that's for sure.

I finished Fallout 3 and New Vegas on my XBox. I remember having some crash problems with NV, something like 3 crashs during a 60-hour game time, but mods were unnecessary too.
Despite all the people who have no problem with this feature and other features that have been mentioned in this thread, he will not be dissuaded from hating on Bethesda for every that has ever gone wrong or been perceived to go wrong with any of their games.

So you guys didn't face any bugs and start thinking the game is bug free?

Screen was turning black with Nvidia in certain locations if you start sneaking. That was fixed by a mod.
A quest (quest where you become a human if you were a vampire) in Oblivion were horribly bugged. My friend started another game 2 times because of that bug

There are bugs that can't be fixed without mods. If you haven't faced one that doesn't make the game suddenly "playable without mods"
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Lysabild

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #2377 on: July 28, 2011, 06:22:18 am »

There are bugs that can't be fixed without mods. If you haven't faced one that doesn't make the game suddenly "playable without mods"

Uuuhh.. So if I complete the game not meeting a single bug, I didn't play it, because I didn't use mods? Duh..
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Soadreqm

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #2378 on: July 28, 2011, 06:50:36 am »

Morrowind occasionally crashed when loading a quicksave, which sometimes came up when savescumming. It would also crash if you went without saving for a long time, ensuring maximum progress lost. That became more funny every time it happened. And there were a lot of minor script bugs causing hilarity. Like an item permanently reducing HP, rather than just dealing damage. That sort of thing.

Yeah, it's a good idea to get the unofficial patches.

Edit: Also, I skimmed through some of the three pages that have appeared since yesterday, and it seems to be mostly people bickering about gaming abstractions. Did I miss any important announcements about TES V: Skyrim?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 06:54:39 am by Soadreqm »
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Virtz

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #2379 on: July 28, 2011, 06:59:46 am »

There are bugs that can't be fixed without mods. If you haven't faced one that doesn't make the game suddenly "playable without mods"

Uuuhh.. So if I complete the game not meeting a single bug, I didn't play it, because I didn't use mods? Duh..
That's not what he said at all.

Just because there exists a configuration out there that doesn't encounter bugs doesn't mean the game's playable. They're supposed to test games on multiple configurations to make sure it works on nearly all of them. If there's a large subset of configurations something doesn't work on, then they fucked up in selecting the configurations to test (or someone ignored the bug along the way like an asshole).

And autosaving never worked right in any Bethesda game I've played. Tested on two different machines. It always ended with the saves getting randomly corrupted.

Also, if you had to use the console to fix 3 bugs, then that doesn't invalidate their existence. The console is not a gameplay element, it's basically a debug tool. You shouldn't have to touch it to play the game.
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shadenight123

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #2380 on: July 28, 2011, 07:04:00 am »

tossing myself here to keep watching (and because i also am waiting for THE game)
one thing many people complained about skyrim was the "reduced" amount of stats/skills and the like.
i just want to bother someone by asking...what's the problem? in a couple of month there will certainly be a Modders so mad to put them right back all of them.
and one will just download the mod and be done with it.
or is it actually impossible?

post scriptum concerning previous arguments:
i actually finished oblivion vanilla, without encountering a single crash. (i did play for a few hours only per day, still).
i suppose had i gone through all the nooks and crannys of the game i might have ended up crashing too, yet my orc berserker wasn't a stealthy kind, and always atom-smashed everything.
now i have oblivion modded with all the patches and fixes, just to be sure everythings going to be fine, since i'm playing it now for the Fun. and the mods.
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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #2381 on: July 28, 2011, 08:07:53 am »

This is an absurd statement. Would you mind backing it up with something so I can better understand what you are saying?
Sure
You are level 1. You only have a iron mace and iron armor set. You encounter some bandits. They are equiped with leather armor, one of them with iron bow, captain with a two handed iron warhammer and others with iron maces/daggers.
You are level 35. You have a daedric armor set and an enchanted daedric claymore. You are going to the exactly same place where you were going when you were level 1. You encounter some bandits. They are equiped with glass armor, one of them with a glass bow, captain with a two handed glass warhammer and others with glass longswords/maces

You are level 1. You complete a quest and recieve a dagger which inflicts 10 damage with 3 fire damage as a reward
In another game you are level 35. You complete the same quest and recieve a dagger which inflicts 15 damage with 7 fire damage as a reward.

See what I mean? There won't be anyone stronger or weaker than you. You rewards and loot will always be "good enough" for you. After some quests you don't really care much about the reward. Even in the Fallout:New Vegas kind of scaling, "adjusting things for the player" is a bad idea.

This is a good example of somebody not understanding what level scaling actually is. Did you ever play Oblivion with any of the popular overhaul mods? I can only think of one (out of the four/five around) that attempted to entirely remove scaling from the game, and of those that didn't they generally did a good job of it.

First I ask that you understand the objective of level scaling: The theory isn't to allow the player to go anywhere and do anything at any time. The theory is to give the player some choice over how they go about "creating" their "own story". You'll agree that doing such is the basis of open-world WRPGs such as the TES series. Thusly, level scaling is an extremely powerful tool as it gives the player a limited amount of control over how things progress (what if I think stopping the Oblivion crisis should be more difficult than becoming the arch-mage? I do the latter first and the former'll be harder when I get to it. What if I think things should be the other way around? Vice versa, etc.).

The problems Bethesda have faced and the mistakes they've made can be, in my opinion, boiled down to two points:
- Bethesda attempted to implemented level scaling in a half-arsed fashion. They wanted to keep some of the traditional elements of RPG design (static skill trees in the form of milestone perks, set equipment tiers, a set Big Bad etc.) without considering the actual potential of level scaling. An excellent example of level scaling done right a conceptual approach similar to level scaling is DF (and what DF will later become): You don't need to have set game progression. If I want to be a random peasant and eventually kill a crundle or something to "win", then that's fine. If I want to be an army-destroying demigod and progress to battling the gods themselves, then that's fine too.
- Bethesda didn't understand that total level scaling in a mostly static environment doesn't work, full stop. This is what leads to the entire daedric invasion being made out of scamps and random bandits having glass armour. If they wanted to keep the static elements of design that they actually did, they should've hard-limited the level scaling to some extent. The TESCS has this capability (and has since Morrowind iirc) built into the GUI and yet Bethsoft were still too incompetent to figure out how to use it correctly. It's ridiculous and it's been gone over dozens of times before (not least by me), so I won't carry on further.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 08:54:07 am by 3 »
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Virtz

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #2382 on: July 28, 2011, 08:39:38 am »

Level scaling, as the name indicates, means scaling things to the player's level. It's exactly what it says. Nothing more.

DF doesn't do this. You can stumble upon a hydra or a dragon while being a total bumpkin. There is no level scaling in DF. Period.
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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #2383 on: July 28, 2011, 08:52:25 am »

That has absolutely no relevance to the point I was making. The point I was making was about how game progression is approached.

Tell you what, I'll edit the post so you don't have to argue anymore, at least until you have a decent retort or something.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2011, 08:54:40 am by 3 »
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Sordid

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Re: Elder scrolls V: Skyrim
« Reply #2384 on: July 28, 2011, 09:00:42 am »

First I ask that you understand the objective of level scaling: The theory isn't to allow the player to go anywhere and do anything at any time.

It is in the case of Oblivion, with results exactly as described by Leatra.

Quote
The theory is to give the player some choice over how they go about "creating" their "own story". You'll agree that doing such is the basis of open-world WRPGs such as the TES series. Thusly, level scaling is an extremely powerful tool as it gives the player a limited amount of control over how things progress (what if I think stopping the Oblivion crisis should be more difficult than becoming the arch-mage? I do the latter first and the former'll be harder when I get to it. What if I think things should be the other way around? Vice versa, etc.).

I don't see what metagaming the system like that has to do with open-world RPG gameplay. If anything, a system that can be abused in such a way is a bad one.

Quote
Bethesda didn't understand that total level scaling in a mostly static environment doesn't work, full stop. This is what leads to the entire daedric invasion being made out of scamps and random bandits having glass armour. If they wanted to keep the static elements of design that they actually did, they should've hard-limited the level scaling to some extent. The TESCS has this capability (and has since Morrowind iirc) built into the GUI and yet Bethsoft were still too incompetent to figure out how to use it correctly.

Oh I don't think it was incompetence. After all, they managed to do it perfectly well in Morrowind, so I think Oblivion's total scaling was a decision made entirely on purpose. The incompetence wasn't in their toolkit usage skills but rather in the underlying game design.
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