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[Vibhor]

A)Removeing skills is not ALWAYS a bad thing, yes many people(includeing myself) do prefer large stat trees with many choices, but streamlineing is not always bad. Incase it is not clear this is mostly addressing the 'fuck streamlineing' comment.

Not always a bad thing but it is a bad thing when Bethesda, someone who lack certain skill known as common sense, try it. Seriously, Blunt axes? What were they smoking?

B)All of the TES games are 'playable' without mods, they are all FUN without mods. To say they 'need mods to be playable' is just being rediculas, the only time a game NEEDS mods to be playable is if it has a monsterous amount of bugs that the devs haven't fixed.

Again wrong, Daggerfall and Oblivion required mods to be played. The only stable releases were Arena and morrowind. Daggerfall is still buggy and Oblivion is just batshit insane with bugs(NPC disappearing, killing themselves for no reason, lock picking their own houses,floating bullshit everywhere) and huge balance issues. You could argue that one can still play the games but then I could say that Daikatana could be a GOTY contender.

C)All of the TES games gave you a roll, unless you didn't pay attention to either the other games or the Lore. You always where someone big and important in the history of the entire world. Also, incase you're unsure  'Dragonborn' is a title, like Neverrine, not a race or anything like that.

In both daggerfall and oblivion you were of no importance. The only games in which you were important are Morrowind and Skyrim. I do not remember the story of Arena very well because I skipped the cutscenes for being to creepy.

D)I'll agree that level scaleing done wrong is bad, as it was in oblivion if only becouse once you got a high enough level monsters had stupid amounts of health. But level scaleing done RIGHT? Such as Fallout:NV which was made with the same engine? It's good. We can hope that the devs learned from other games that did level scaleing well on this engine

Bethesda have never done level scaling right. FNV was made by Obsidian and even then the difficulty curve was fucked over. Fallout 3 was absolute disaster in this case with raiders getting sniper rifles and rocket launchers as soon as I hit level 10.

E)You could teleport right to your objective in Daggerfall as well, AND many of the 'directions' where stupidly unhelpful in morrowind. Now I'll admit the little arrow pointer is rediculas, but pointing out the area you need to go to(the general area on the main map) is not a bad thing, also incase you didn't notice you could only fast travel to the quest marker if it was somewhere you've been before

No you could not teleport right to your objective in daggerfall. The fast travel system worked in that game because the world was fucking huge and generally boring. Also, none of the directions were stupid and useless in morrowind. They gave you a general idea of the location while giving you the chance to explore. The only thing the directions required was a good sense of navigation. In oblivion you could fast travel anywhere you liked with no consequences. Even a cost of some gold would have made the experience more immersive.

Its been a good read and I hope that you reply with something sensible and not just "U jelly! Don buy if no like"

[KaguroDraven]

Ok first off, please don't end your post with something implying I'm a troll. I'm not, I honestly just got annoyed at all the hate and wanted to make my point. Implying that I am trolling becouse I stated my opinion is in and of itself a form of trolling, so please do not do it.

Axes fell under blunt weapons becouse they are used in a manor more similer to blunt weapons than blades, but yes it was stupid.

Now this is just personal experiance, but I've never played any of the TES games with a mod, ever. I've never used mods period. I was still able to enjoy all the TES games, and the biggest problem I ever found was the void in Daggerfall, which from what I've heard mods can't completely fix anyway. But again, this is just personal experiance maybe I got lucky when it comes to bugs.

In Daggerfall you broke part of the world, you also started as a close personal friend of the Emporer. I'd call that someone of importance. In Oblivion, yeah you where mostly an errend boy and yes the story fucked the lore hard(which does infuriate me) but you did save Cyrodill(or atleast got the credit), you also infuriated a Daedric prince doing it.

I'm aware it was made by different people that's why I said 'we can hope' I never implyed they made FNV, just that it was on the same engine. Fallout 3 wasn't perfect but it was better than Oblivion, baby steps.

I was useing the same turn of phrase he did, like Oblivion you could teleport to the general area not the exact point where your objective is. I never said 'useless' I said unhelpful, which are two different things. Useless means they have litterally no use, unhelpful means they just aren't much help and often times are unclear, and in a few very rare cases pointed you in the wrong direction. I'll admit it would have been more immersuve for the Fast Travel to cost some gold, if you where traveling to a town/inn/city/anything else on the road. It wouldn't make sense if you where going to a random cave on the other side of the map. And yes walking the entire way, or most of it, is more immersive. But if you have a specific goal in mind it can get tedious.

[Karnewarrior]

Which Oblivion Dev Lied The Most: http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=15427

Why did you link us to a troll thread?


Kaguro, is english your first language? You're making some very valid points but it's completely coated in typos, which won't help your case much. Not that the peanut gallery here have any idea what they're talking about. :I

[KaguroDraven]

It is but I've always had problems with spelling, add that to the fact that I think faster than I type and I end up typeing things in the wrong order as well, plus I kinda try to post before ninjas do so I don't proof-read as much as I should.

[Leatra]

Thanks for the comments, Vibhor and KaguroDraven

A)Removeing skills is not ALWAYS a bad thing, yes many people(includeing myself) do prefer large stat trees with many choices, but streamlineing is not always bad. Incase it is not clear this is mostly addressing the 'fuck streamlineing' comment.

Not always a bad thing but it is a bad thing when Bethesda, someone who lack certain skill known as common sense, try it. Seriously, Blunt axes? What were they smoking?

I wouldn't say anything about it if they were removing needless skills. Well, acrobatics can be exploited and athletics is difficult to train and both of them are RP-killers but seriously... Spears, "blunt" axes, no medium armor. Were these skills really trash? I saw a mod where axe became a "blade". Axe is not a blade nor a blunt weapon. This is just dumb. We used to have more variety.

C)All of the TES games gave you a roll, unless you didn't pay attention to either the other games or the Lore. You always where someone big and important in the history of the entire world. Also, incase you're unsure  'Dragonborn' is a title, like Neverrine, not a race or anything like that.

In both daggerfall and oblivion you were of no importance. The only games in which you were important are Morrowind and Skyrim. I do not remember the story of Arena very well because I skipped the cutscenes for being to creepy.

In Oblivion you were only a witness to the Emperor's death. If you didn't follow the main story you would stay that way.
In Morrowind you were only a stranger who have arrived to Seyda Neen. If you didn't follow the main quests
In Skyrim even if you don't follow the main quest you are the guy who slaughters dragons.

D)I'll agree that level scaleing done wrong is bad, as it was in oblivion if only becouse once you got a high enough level monsters had stupid amounts of health. But level scaleing done RIGHT? Such as Fallout:NV which was made with the same engine? It's good. We can hope that the devs learned from other games that did level scaleing well on this engine

Bethesda have never done level scaling right. FNV was made by Obsidian and even then the difficulty curve was fucked over. Fallout 3 was absolute disaster in this case with raiders getting sniper rifles and rocket launchers as soon as I hit level 10.

Level scaling cannot be done right in a RPG.

but pointing out the area you need to go to(the general area on the main map) is not a bad thing

It is a bad thing. Now you know the place where you need to go, you don't have to follow a road, interact with people, pay attention to your surroundings. You just run to the marker.

also incase you didn't notice you could only fast travel to the quest marker if it was somewhere you've been before

So what? You just run there. You don't even go from the road. I could do it while watching a TV.

Axes fell under blunt weapons becouse they are used in a manor more similer to blunt weapons than blades

You don't swing an axe like you swing a club. It may seem same but it's different. A double axe is slightly similiar though.

Which Oblivion Dev Lied The Most: http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=15427

Why did you link us to a troll thread?

Didn't want to copy-paste the whole post. http://www.waiting4oblivion.com/developer_quotes.html is a dead link and I don't see why it is a troll thread.

Anyway. Game isn't out yet. Let's see what will we face...

[KaguroDraven]

I did not say 'the same' I said 'more similer' first of all. Once again, there is a difference.

No, those skills where not trash and I'll admit I would have prefered them, that is why I edited my post to specify the 'fuck streamlineing' comment when I said it's not always bad,

I haven't been following Skyrim a whole lot so I'm not sure weither that is true or not. All I know is that being DragonBorn will allow you, via the main quest, to be a Tounge, well a varient of one anyway. Something in the Lore already.

That is a choice. You can choose to follow the marker(and continue your quest) or you can wander of your own free will. Saying a game needs to deny you clear directions to atleast the general area(on the main map) just so you have a chance to wander doesn't make much sense, atleast to me. I can wander for hours in games ignoreing any quests, but when I choose to do a quest I want clear directions to whatever dungeon I have to go into for it. I don't want directions through the dungeon, just to it's location.

[Leatra]

Saying a game needs to deny you clear directions to atleast the general area(on the main map) just so you have a chance to wander doesn't make much sense, atleast to me. I can wander for hours in games ignoreing any quests, but when I choose to do a quest I want clear directions to whatever dungeon I have to go into for it. I don't want directions through the dungeon, just to it's location.

These aren't "clear directions" they are just a mark at the map telling you "Kill the evil necromancer here" rather than "Evil necromancer resides in a fortress which is located at Gold Road, close to Anvil" Also, when you go into a dungeon to kill something (for the quest). Marker still shows you where he is. You don't have to search for him in the dungeon. Seriously, how could you know that guy's location in a big dungeon? You are in a dungeon that you visited for the first time and you magically know the location of the bad guy. This is just stupid. You may still say "I don't want to search for him." Well, I'm no fan of hack&slashes but you can have fun.

[KaguroDraven]

Ok, please stop ignoreing some of the things I type. I said the pointer that points to someone's exact location is stupid, I said I dislike it. I said I just want the general location on the main map. I do not think Oblivion handled it correctly, but I also do not think Morrowind did. There needs to be a balance, beyond directions that are usually more generic than the ones you just gave as an example and a pointer that leads you in the exact right direction. I am saying both games do it wrong and finding a medium of the two would be best.

[Leatra]

Ok, please stop ignoreing some of the things I type. I said the pointer that points to someone's exact location is stupid, I said I dislike it. I said I just want the general location on the main map. I do not think Oblivion handled it correctly, but I also do not think Morrowind did. There needs to be a balance, beyond directions that are usually more generic than the ones you just gave as an example and a pointer that leads you in the exact right direction. I am saying both games do it wrong and finding a medium of the two would be best.

Yes I agree. There are quests in Morrowind I forgot to do because of the journal system. Some of the directions given at Morrowind were not enough but most of them were easy enough to do. I still prefer Morrowind.

Also, I was really young when I was playing Morrowind. I didn't know english very well (I still don't know it perfectly, as you can see) but I was able to do them. There were quests that I spent hours with though.

I guess that finishes our debate

[postal83]

Personally, I think we can do without athletics and acrobatics.  meh.
Having a ton of skills can be nice for options, but they really don't 'actually' do much.

[Leatra]

Personally, I think we can do without athletics and acrobatics.  meh.
Having a ton of skills can be nice for options, but they really don't 'actually' do much.

These aren't the only things thats getting removed. Mysticism is gone too.

[C4lv1n]

Personally, I think we can do without athletics and acrobatics.  meh.
Having a ton of skills can be nice for options, but they really don't 'actually' do much.

These aren't the only things thats getting removed. Mysticism is gone too.

Yeah but Mysticism was almost useless, I'd only ever train it for Soul Trap, everything else is did was silly.

Even on total mage characters I'd get rid of it in favor of Marksmanship for a backup weapon

[The Mechanical Man]

Personally, I think we can do without athletics and acrobatics.  meh.
Having a ton of skills can be nice for options, but they really don't 'actually' do much.

Diversity is always better in my opinion. Of course there shouldn't be Drinking or Sitting skills, but taking out lots of skills for Skyrim is a bit disappointing. It makes characters much less unique and doesn't allow as much specialization. I can pick up a one-handed sword and use it until I become a master swordsman, and then pick up a mace (a weapon I have never even touched before then) and suddenly be just as deadly with that. It just doesn't make much sense. Gameplay wise of course, you'd probably just be using one weapon most of the time, not switching between ten different ones, so it wouldn't make much of a difference, but it still bothers me.

Another thing that annoys me is that they've taken the Fallout 3 route as far as armor and clothing is concerned (they have simplified armor). In Morrowind, you had boots, greaves, a cuirass, pauldrons, gauntlets, and a helmet. And that still is a simplification of real life medieval armor. But in Skyrim it appears that the cuirass, pauldrons and greaves are all blended into one item, 'armor'. So a suit of steel would be steel boots, steel gauntlets, steel helmet, and steel armor.

One of the reasons this is so disappointing is that if you want to enchant your armor, you suddenly have less to enchant. You can only enchant 4 pieces of armor in Skyrim, as opposed to 8 in Morrowind (pauldrons and gauntlets have left/right versions). And that's not even counting clothing that you could wear underneath armor in Morrowind. So overall, enchanted armor is going to be much less effective, given the enchantment system is the one used to Oblivion.

[scriver]

You will start the game as a Dragonborn. That makes you someone, gives you a role. This is why I think we will be playing an action game and not a RPG.

I agree with the rest of what you said to a certain extent, but this is just silly. Were the Fallout games action games because you had a "role" in the storyline? Baldur's Gate? Planescape: Torment?

I wouldn't say anything about it if they were removing needless skills. Well, acrobatics can be exploited and athletics is difficult to train and both of them are RP-killers but seriously... Spears, "blunt" axes, no medium armor. Were these skills really trash? I saw a mod where axe became a "blade". Axe is not a blade nor a blunt weapon. This is just dumb. We used to have more variety.

Spears were not cut because they didn't think they needed the skill, it was cut because they didn't want to spend time implementing spears. Medium armour, however, was completely useless. It served no purpose at all, it just created a another line of armour that needed to be filled, often with armours that made no sense at all to have there. Many of them could easily have been fitted into light or heavy. Keep in mind, though, that I say this as a person who would rather see "Light Armour" be changed into a "Dodge" skill, and thought the concept of armour skills was overly gamey to begin with.

In Oblivion you were only a witness to the Emperor's death. If you didn't follow the main story you would stay that way.
In Morrowind you were only a stranger who have arrived to Seyda Neen. If you didn't follow the main quests
In Skyrim even if you don't follow the main quest you are the guy who slaughters dragons.

In Oblivion you were prophesied to become to become the CoC, the Emperor saw you in his dreams. In Morrowind, regardless of whether or not you were the Nerevarine, you were never just "a stranger" but an important pawn in both the Empire's and Azura's power games from the start. Pretending something else required you to ignore this as well as break away from the main quest and the story that had been lined up for you.

I doubt it will be any different in Skyrim.

Level scaling cannot be done right in a RPG.

This is an absurd statement. Would you mind backing it up with something so I can better understand what you are saying?

Axes fell under blunt weapons becouse they are used in a manor more similer to blunt weapons than blades

You don't swing an axe like you swing a club. It may seem same but it's different. A double axe is slightly similiar though.

You don't use long swords, sabres, short swords, katanas, or any other of the swords that fall under "Blade" the same way either. It's just an abstraction.

Another thing that annoys me is that they've taken the Fallout 3 route as far as armor and clothing is concerned (they have simplified armor). In Morrowind, you had boots, greaves, a cuirass, pauldrons, gauntlets, and a helmet. And that still is a simplification of real life medieval armor. But in Skyrim it appears that the cuirass, pauldrons and greaves are all blended into one item, 'armor'. So a suit of steel would be steel boots, steel gauntlets, steel helmet, and steel armor.

I'm sad to see the "greaves" slot go as well, but at least they gave a good reason, for once. Still think they could have spared the legs slot for separate pants and other lower body clothing, though.

One of the reasons this is so disappointing is that if you want to enchant your armor, you suddenly have less to enchant. You can only enchant 4 pieces of armor in Skyrim, as opposed to 8 in Morrowind (pauldrons and gauntlets have left/right versions). And that's not even counting clothing that you could wear underneath armor in Morrowind. So overall, enchanted armor is going to be much less effective, given the enchantment system is the one used to Oblivion.

I'm not sure that is a bad thing. Enchanting all those Morrowind parts were very abuseable, very detrimental to balance. It's related to why most games doesn't let us wear more than two rings and one necklace, even though there is no real reason you just can't keep heaping them on yourself.

Of course, I also want magical equipment to feel special and not just be something you can find around every corner. Which I doubt Skyrim will deliver on, as that isn't really the TES style of doing things, unfortunately. For me.

[Leatra]

You will start the game as a Dragonborn. That makes you someone, gives you a role. This is why I think we will be playing an action game and not a RPG.

I agree with the rest of what you said to a certain extent, but this is just silly. Were the Fallout games action games because you had a "role" in the storyline? Baldur's Gate? Planescape: Torment?

You didn't have a role at the Fallout 3 game. You were just a kid looking for his father. At Fallout:NW you are a guy who survived a shot to the head and seeking revenge. Sure it changes when you move further into the storyline. IF you choose to do so. What are you at Skyrim? Slaughter of Dragons. I'm not saying every RPG should be a sandbox but if you want to RP then you shouldn't have a strict role given to you by devs.

I wouldn't say anything about it if they were removing needless skills. Well, acrobatics can be exploited and athletics is difficult to train and both of them are RP-killers but seriously... Spears, "blunt" axes, no medium armor. Were these skills really trash? I saw a mod where axe became a "blade". Axe is not a blade nor a blunt weapon. This is just dumb. We used to have more variety.

Spears were not cut because they didn't think they needed the skill, it was cut because they didn't want to spend time implementing spears. Medium armour, however, was completely useless. It served no purpose at all, it just created a another line of armour that needed to be filled, often with armours that made no sense at all to have there. Many of them could easily have been fitted into light or heavy. Keep in mind, though, that I say this as a person who would rather see "Light Armour" be changed into a "Dodge" skill, and thought the concept of armour skills was overly gamey to begin with.

Spears were cut because Bethesda lacks the skills to make the animation. I don't even rembember the last game with good spear animations (Diablo II maybe?) I like variety in a game and I want to see varied armor too. Medium armors in Morrowind weren't "light" or "heavy" they were just "medium".

In Oblivion you were only a witness to the Emperor's death. If you didn't follow the main story you would stay that way.
In Morrowind you were only a stranger who have arrived to Seyda Neen. If you didn't follow the main quests
In Skyrim even if you don't follow the main quest you are the guy who slaughters dragons.

In Oblivion you were prophesied to become to become the CoC, the Emperor saw you in his dreams. In Morrowind, regardless of whether or not you were the Nerevarine, you were never just "a stranger" but an important pawn in both the Empire's and Azura's power games from the start. Pretending something else required you to ignore this as well as break away from the main quest and the story that had been lined up for you.

First when I heard the whole "Dragonborn" thing. I thought races were getting removed too and be able to become only Nord. This is just too much. In Morrowind in the start you were just "a stranger" IF you didn't follow the main story. They just left you at Seyda Neen and told you to go meet the Blades guy. In Oblivion, well yeah you were something but you still didn't know what you were. You only had to deliver an amulet that you (your character) doesn't know much about. However, I didn't like how was it in Oblivion too. You were in Oblivion (Oblivion itself!) after 20 minutes from your prison if you only did main quests.

Level scaling cannot be done right in a RPG.

This is an absurd statement. Would you mind backing it up with something so I can better understand what you are saying?

Sure
You are level 1. You only have a iron mace and iron armor set. You encounter some bandits. They are equiped with leather armor, one of them with iron bow, captain with a two handed iron warhammer and others with iron maces/daggers.
You are level 35. You have a daedric armor set and an enchanted daedric claymore. You are going to the exactly same place where you were going when you were level 1. You encounter some bandits. They are equiped with glass armor, one of them with a glass bow, captain with a two handed glass warhammer and others with glass longswords/maces

You are level 1. You complete a quest and recieve a dagger which inflicts 10 damage with 3 fire damage as a reward
In another game you are level 35. You complete the same quest and recieve a dagger which inflicts 15 damage with 7 fire damage as a reward.

See what I mean? There won't be anyone stronger or weaker than you. You rewards and loot will always be "good enough" for you. After some quests you don't really care much about the reward. Even in the Fallout:New Vegas kind of scaling, "adjusting things for the player" is a bad idea.

Axes fell under blunt weapons becouse they are used in a manor more similer to blunt weapons than blades

You don't swing an axe like you swing a club. It may seem same but it's different. A double axe is slightly similiar though.

You don't use long swords, sabres, short swords, katanas, or any other of the swords that fall under "Blade" the same way either. It's just an abstraction.

Still, axes aren't blunt.

One of the reasons this is so disappointing is that if you want to enchant your armor, you suddenly have less to enchant. You can only enchant 4 pieces of armor in Skyrim, as opposed to 8 in Morrowind (pauldrons and gauntlets have left/right versions). And that's not even counting clothing that you could wear underneath armor in Morrowind. So overall, enchanted armor is going to be much less effective, given the enchantment system is the one used to Oblivion.

I'm not sure that is a bad thing. Enchanting all those Morrowind parts were very abuseable, very detrimental to balance. It's related to why most games doesn't let us wear more than two rings and one necklace, even though there is no real reason you just can't keep heaping them on yourself.

Of course, I also want magical equipment to feel special and not just be something you can find around every corner. Which I doubt Skyrim will deliver on, as that isn't really the TES style of doing things, unfortunately. For me.

Agreed. You can be invincible when you enchant your equipment correctly at Oblivion. It's still sad to see so many slots getting removed, rather than making some enchants less powerful to keep the balance