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Total Members Voted: 11

[Hastur]

((Only Gar was missing, he's here now, we can logically assume that, since you stole his puppy he will say something along the lines of, "He stole my dog, that bastard" which is what we have basically been operating upon anyhow.  Looks like you're not going to get punished anyhow because apparently everyone here is afraid of seeing justice be done.  In conclusion, quit belly-aching, shape up, stop stealing shit.

Also, how can it be unforgivable and not merit punishment?  How can you be a bit fuzzy regarding ownership when it was in my personal items when he tried to take it?  Finally, how can taking a dog and using it for personal enrichment be construed as anything but theft?))

you have not demostrated that i stole the puppy, the gm has never said that i even trained it because he objected, it is unknown whether i even used the puppy to find mikhails stash since the gm never gave me details on how i found it.

even if i had borrowed the dog (not demonstrable) trained it (didnt happen) and used it to find the stash, we as a community gain maikhails stash that we didnt have before. You had already claimed the iron chainmail before even finding the stash and got in an argument with dragonshardz over it, that makes you a hipocrite

[V-Norrec]

((Only Gar was missing, he's here now, we can logically assume that, since you stole his puppy he will say something along the lines of, "He stole my dog, that bastard" which is what we have basically been operating upon anyhow.  Looks like you're not going to get punished anyhow because apparently everyone here is afraid of seeing justice be done.  In conclusion, quit belly-aching, shape up, stop stealing shit.

Also, how can it be unforgivable and not merit punishment?  How can you be a bit fuzzy regarding ownership when it was in my personal items when he tried to take it?  Finally, how can taking a dog and using it for personal enrichment be construed as anything but theft?))

you have not demostrated that i stole the puppy, the gm has never said that i even trained it because he objected, it is unknown whether i even used the puppy to find mikhails stash since the gm never gave me details on how i found it.

even if i had borrowed the dog (not demonstrable) trained it (didnt happen) and used it to find the stash, we as a community gain maikhails stash that we didnt have before. You had already claimed the iron chainmail before even finding the stash and got in an argument with dragonshardz over it, that makes you a hipocrite

((That dog was stolen and you've attempted to steal shit from day one.  You're just getting pissy now because there has been some inconvience in your path.  Really, attempted theft is a crime, you should have to face consequences for it.  Also, none of that matters, I didn't find it.  I could very well have given it all to the community as I did with the horse and Blackstone Orders that I found.  You on the other hand DID find it and proceeded to hoard everything.  There is a huge difference here.))

[Ochita]

((What was on those scout orders?))

[V-Norrec]

((Don't know, if CoughDrop ever read them it was never made public.  I didn't attempt to read them because I was more focused on finding my way home.))

[CoughDrop]

"The Blackstone Scout Orders indicate that the scout rider was to ride ahead of of the main body, rotating with another guard every few hours. That they were almost to the cliffs is odd, as the patrol had the soldiers moving along the coastal path between villages.

They were on a heightened alert for goblins, but had not encountered any as of the writing of the orders. The scout was only lightly equipped, with supplies for a few weeks of travel solo. At this point the patrol had started to return back to Blackstone, its journey without incident.

There is little information on this page. It's likely that more comprehensive records would be on an officer, unless more orders were carried but lost."

This is from some time ago and I didn't feel like it was prudent to share it with the rest of the dwarves.

Edit: That reminds me, I saw the Horse Norrec brought back in my inventory... How did that happen?

[V-Norrec]

((Well I was just saying, I didn't know what was on there or if you had ever read it.  I didn't figure it would be anything too useful, but you never know.))

[Ochita]

Hooo boy thats awkward... We encountered Goblins. Check the events at the start.

[Hastur]

Since we are not respecting due process here goes my first argument

"Very well, I hereby swear to Ekast, Goddesses of oaths and loyalty, that I, Norrec Rikkirmebzuth, will only work to administering justice, and only through truthful means.  Let no deceit cross my lips, so help me."

Take Unclaimed gold bar, Flawless Jet, steel dagger+1 if unclaimed, leather armour unless inconvenient, claim those extra clothes as a change of clothes.

Those are Norrec's gold bars, Coughdrop's jet, Samthere's dagger, Rolan's clothes and the armour could belong to a few people. I should note down if its personally owned.

these quotes show that i tried to take UNCLAIMED things. they were in a list of unclaimed items, so i helped myself to things i thought i could use or that were better of with me than in the first kobolds hands that came by to steal from US. Since they were listed as unclaimed items at the time i figured they were taken off of the dead that the other dwarves had killed in town. you guys killed lots of people before we left on the expedition. The second quote that shad- said even says clearly that he should note down if they are personally owned.

"To affirm that as I claim, the various goods that Sandow attempted to steal were in the possession of others, I call Urist Orebalance, or if the court believe he is too biased a witness, then Litast, whom was nearly a victim of this particular crime."

*Insert Litast's or Urist's statement here*

"This was merely the first in a long history of attempted theft however.  I would like to bring up several more incidents to prove that this is a pattern of behavior that action must be taken against or else risk having is spread to other members of our fortress and setting this fortress up to be no more than a den of thieves."

The judge said i was being tried for multiple counts of THEFT not attempted theft, attempted theft requires you to prove intent, and you do not meet a burden of proof with assertions. As teh nazis say, if you say something often enough people will start to belive it without examining the evidence. All you ahve are assertions and allegations. I think i am qualified in stating my own intent of my actiosn so unless you have EVIDENCE you are just making things up.

I claim her bed! and the gold bars+anything else Drag it to my bedroom.

"His greed also took hold during the short time in which I was dead as he attempted to steal my goods from Urist, to whom they should rightfully be passed down to.  This unabashed greed and willingness to steal from others has been proven multiple times over and this is a most callous example as he attempted to steal from a grieving lover, who just witnessed his lover's violent murder.  Have you no shame Sandow?  HAVE YOU NO SHAME?"

Dwarven history is littered with examples of the deads goods being claimed. Many dwarves have died trying to claim a pair of socks from a still warm corpse before the battle is even over. There is no crime there, we are a community, and your or my claim or anybodys claim on any items is anulled once they die. you were dead, the bed could be put to better use by anying without one, and i was not about to leave the gold bars lying on the ground in the middle of camp. REMEMBER THE KOBOLDS? they were not a paranoid fantasy, they actually came and stole things. Being prepared for the future is not a crime. just because you were offended does not make it a crime. you cannot steal from the dead, and i am not responible for your, you do not have the right to never get offended or have hurt feelings

i read i before it was cool

New schedule
000-700;7hours; Train sword skill on golem. Golem digs meanwhile (a bedroom 2 squares big, one square of which will be for the door)
700-800 ;1hour; eat the best available,warm it up at the fire. golem diggs in my place.

800-1500;7hours;Train a dog for tracking by searching for mikhails hiding spot, use his grave or personal effects as a scent reference, track the missing male chicken with any spare time.
1500-1600;1hour; eat the best available, and warm it up at the fire. golem digs while i eat

1600-2300; sleep in bed, golem stands guard in doorway.
2300-2400; eat in bed. have the golem warm it up in the fire. golem digs while i eat and watch him

"I would also like to point out that in his latest attempt to steal from those who set up the fortress beside him, he took possession of somebody's dog, without asking might I add, trained him in tracking, at the very least as the extent of the training is not known to anyone other than Sandow, and then tracked down goods belonging to Mikhail and claimed all of what he found for his own, as can very clearly be seen by the growth of his personal possessions, despite many of those goods being found could have been used to help the fortress in general.  I would also like to remind the judges that much work in the fortress was put forth to ensuring the continued operation of what he claims to be HIS golem.  We did this at great risk to the fortress as many of the metal fittings were needed for construction and took much time to apply to his golem, and that no payment of any kind was given by Sandow for the repair of his golem but done merely out of the good will of the members of this fortress."

trying to borrow things is not theft. TRYING TO BORROW THINGS IS NOT THEFT. do you call it theft when someone borrows an axe to cut down a tree? a fishing pole when someone wants to fish? a bed when someone tries to sleep? a barrel when someone needs to store food? I wanted to upgrade the dog to a hunting dog, not for my own good, i cant hunt. it was for the good of the fortresss and i did it with the group in mind. we need food remember? hunting=food. The golem thing was not my decision i never asked to spend iron on it, in fact i thought it was a stone golem, i even tried to engrave it. I shoudl not be responible for descisions that i didnt make. i only asked kogan if he could take a look at it because it was breaking down. And as previously demonstrated the golem has done good work and SAVED YOUR VERY LIFE ingrate!!

"I call Tholtig to testify to the growth of the personal possessions, Gar to comment on the stealing of his puppy and, Kogan to testify that the work on his golem was done free of charge with no payment received of any kind."

*insert statements here*

"With all of this evidence, we can be certain the Sandow has displayed an attitude of contempt for other members of this fortress, not only by attempting to steal items that rightfully belonged to them, but in the case of Gar's puppy, successfully stealing another's pet, merely for his own personal gain.  This pattern of behavior is unmistakable, and it is my hope that the judges will come to the same conclusion as I, that this behavior is completely inappropriate and should not be tolerated by any member of this fortress, noble or not, for any reason."

Attempts to steal require you to prove intent, i have testified i have acted in the best interests of the community, you have not shown i stole anybodys pet, even gar who owns the puppy in qwuestion does not think i stole it from him. I have expained where all the items in my inventory came from and i have not denied the use of any possetions to their owners. THEFT IS NOT THE SAME AS BORROWING there is a difference. I am being tried on counts of THEFT anyways not attempted theft.
((Note to those called, please comment only on the matters you were called about, refrain from details not necessary to the story and also refrain from giving your own opinion on this case))

The fundamental difference here is a sense of perspective, I consider us a community, and i presume we all actin in our best interests because together we are stronger and can accomplish more. Norrec wants to create a divide between us a great rift where there is a huge distinction in personal rights and ownership. But what he does not realise is that this is not a ZERO SUM GAME, we can all work together and be winner or we can all compete, backstab each other, and betray each others confidence. Those acting in good faith loose in that kind of society, and i do not want to be in a rigid society living as a slave, i want to be free to help according to my abilities.

[elitetaco3519]

((Ah this sounds like the salem witchcraft trials, norrec is calling witch, sandow is the "witch". So...))

[CoughDrop]

"Sandow, do not think for a second that I was defending you by allowing leniency on your trial. If you fuck up again, there will be no remorse."

[Shade-o]

Nylona says, "I move for a mistrial. Let's just confiscate some property and put this behind us."

[Ochita]

"If there is a mistrial, then take away his weapons and mikals stash. Execpt for the training sword."

[Hastur]

"Sandow, do not think for a second that I was defending you by allowing leniency on your trial. If you fuck up again, there will be no remorse."

the thought didnt even cross my mind your honor seeing as how aspersions have been cast upon me i will definatly act more conscientiously in the future no matter the cost. I dont need these problems and I never would have been anybody would object to me training their puppy for example, i thought i was doing good for the fortresses stocks by finding mikhails stash, The golem was repaired using comminity rescources and have since increased the time it is working for the fortresses good, and our accountants have definatly made who has claimed what items for themselves much clearer since the time that we all came here with our goods piled up in the back of a wagon. perhaps i assumed unwisely that the loose goods were unclaimed, but even in my ignorance i took that possibility into account and stated that i attempted to take the UNCLAIMED items, I had figured they came off the dead your honor, otherwise they would be in personal inventory. it wont happend again in the future though, since communal goods are now clearly marked on our record sheet. Please keep in mind i did not keep any items from anybody else. and to me at least that is the distinction between theft and borrowing or safekeeping. For exampel i have a spare set of leather armour with me, does anybody want it? i have not put it into the communal stocks yet, but in the intervenign time i dont think of myself as having stolen it. It even came off a dead dwarfs stash.

[Ochita]

"Ahem. That metal could have gone towards making a wagon or some sort, I understand that you want to keep your golem maintained but using all of the metal fittings was a selfish move. Infact, you had claimed all of Norrec's stuff before I woke up. Acting on impulse can lead to consequences. You yourself said that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. If so, then why keep your goods, the needs for you being placed over the needs of the many. I rest my case."

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Why do we punish? If it is to reap vengence then what does vengence gain us? It does not help our food supplies, it does not help us dig. It is a wild goose chase. Let go of your retributive emotions, you can sacrifice them for material gain, material gain for the whole community. Do not the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? there is still much work to be done. The future of the fortress demands it!

[Hastur]

"Ahem. That metal could have gone towards making a wagon or some sort, I understand that you want to keep your golem maintained but using all of the metal fittings was a selfish move. Infact, you had claimed all of Norrec's stuff before I woke up. Acting on impulse can lead to consequences. You yourself said that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. If so, then why keep your goods, the needs for you being placed over the needs of the many. I rest my case."

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Why do we punish? If it is to reap vengence then what does vengence gain us? It does not help our food supplies, it does not help us dig. It is a wild goose chase. Let go of your retributive emotions, you can sacrifice them for material gain, material gain for the whole community. Do not the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few? there is still much work to be done. The future of the fortress demands it!

i didnt use all the metal fittings, I said it before I'll say it again, I didnt use up the metal fittings. kogan should be praised for fixing the golem not I, remember who saved norrecs life?protip: it was the golem and I. my words and examples seems to pass through your mind like water, if i yell it louder and more repeatedly maybe that is the only way to reason with the less thoroughly educated. I also agree with you on the needs of the many, that is why i have been working in the best interests of the fortress, we all have a part to play. I have used mikhails sword, i have battled the kobolds already in the armour, i have offered up my craft goods, i have multiplied our food reserves, i have contributed greatly to our digging rate, and have added to our fortresses martial prowess, even the entirety of my spare money went towards buying chickens for our long term survival, ALL OF IT I HAD LEFT went to as many chickens i could get. What have i asked for in return? my share of the booze and a bed? thats all i can recall off the top of my head. I am not the one throwing accusations around, i am the victim here. Have i attempted revenge? have i called norrec a paranoid deluded ignoramus? have i called him on his lies? have i pointed out his OATH-BREAKING? his assertions and false conclusions and testimonies are all on the record. if i were a vengefull man I'd make a point before the court that oath breaking is a capital offence. i am the picture of patience and long-suffering.