Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16] 17 18 ... 24

Author Topic: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia [Over - Dark Sorcerers Win!]  (Read 49835 times)

Jim Groovester

  • Bay Watcher
  • 1P
    • View Profile
Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia [Day 2 - Holy Jokerman-EXE Batman!]
« Reply #225 on: November 01, 2010, 09:16:05 pm »

Okay.

So, what makes you think whoever is doing an RiA?

Do you think that IronyOwl and Eduren are both scum, or that one of them is scum? And why?
Logged
I understood nothing, contributed nothing, but still got to win, so good game everybody else.

IronyOwl

  • Bay Watcher
  • Nope~
    • View Profile
Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia [Day 2 - Holy Jokerman-EXE Batman!]
« Reply #226 on: November 01, 2010, 09:41:14 pm »

...but now that I think of it, seeing it's probably lylo, what would people think about a mass call/colour claim? Most everyone would just claim "VT, forgot to support", but if the sorcerers know about their abilities in detail given the number of supporters, and they know that with enough they may be able to prevent a NK on themselves or something like that, then their claiming could be useful to garner enough support, and we could make up our minds about who's the scum based on their Day scummitude presented so far...

I'm not actually proposing we do this, but it doesn't seem as crazy as I initially thought. Opinions? Would it be a terrible idea, or are there ways to make it work? At the very least, it would give us more statements to work with, rather than rehashing the same five trite arguments we've been recycling for days now (Jim's plan; Irony/Eduren D1 votes, uselessness and hypocrisy; JS's noobness; Org/Person's lurkiness; my whateverness). These have been churned enough to be turned into butter, and we don't seem to be closer to consensus.
Dear god, this is the worst plan I've ever seen. Scum claim Apprentice No Vote, our last Town Sorcerer claims, and we get ONE full-power town action before he's NKed and we're left wondering who the scum is.

Oh! And next morning everyone claims Apprentice Voted Non-Scum Like We Agreed. How the hell could this tell us anything or not result in our PR dying?
Logged
Quote from: Radio Controlled (Discord)
A hand, a hand, my kingdom for a hot hand!
The kitchenette mold free, you move on to the pantry. it's nasty in there. The bacon is grazing on the lettuce. The ham is having an illicit affair with the prime rib, The potatoes see all, know all. A rat in boxer shorts smoking a foul smelling cigar is banging on a cabinet shouting about rent money.

Zathras

  • Bay Watcher
  • Boogie thinks you being confoosed.
    • View Profile
Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia [Day 2 - Holy Jokerman-EXE Batman!]
« Reply #227 on: November 01, 2010, 09:46:46 pm »

For the first, it was late, I'm answering them now. The only real question was "why have you been ignoring JS?"
So you just casually decided to blow off all of my questions. I was just grilling you before but this is legitimately suspicious. Unvote. Answer my questions, Zathras. It's scummy as hell to reduce all my accusations and questions into one you can easily answer. It's also scummy as hell to not respond to me directly.
Oh, you are one high maintenance little bitch, aren't you? I lumped it in because "why ignore him" was the crux of it, and I added it to the Person one because he asked it again and asked a second one. Pardon my drive for economy. But if you really like the verbose approach, I'll present you with a point by point of your previous.


Stuff
This is unhelpful, and attempting to erase my actual words from your reply is a scummy attempt to phrase the conversation around your preconceptions... you know, like you accused me of doing for my daring to respond to Person instead of massaging your need for attention?

Quote from: jim
So why did you wait for me to prod you before you did your due diligence and fill the gap in your issuance of meaningless blue text?
As I said, I had nothing else to ask, up to the point where I did. And if the blue text is meaningless, why your fixation with it and how I distribute it?

Quote
You called him to post repeatedly over the course of the game. Why did you never follow up on it, even after he posted?
I asked him to post his scumpicks, and he did. They seemed reasoned to me, so I saw no need to reply. It's just you who has this fetish to have every word of his quoted and masticated to a pulp.

Quote
Not even the rampant buddying?
I haven't seen any rampant buddying. He has agreed with my assessment of you, but that's not buddying -- that's agreement. Or were you and Eduren buddying here?:

PPE: Jim: IronyOwl is scum for two reasons, his actions Day 1, and his actions Day 2.
Gotcha, thanks. Those are fairly credible reasons.
You call them credible, but do you find them persuasive?
I do. [...]

Finding other's arguments persuasive is not buddying. Seeking agreement is the reason one presents arguments. But I am open to the possibility, thus my last question to him. You did see it, didn't you?

Quote
The blatant and unconcealed OMGUS?
I haven't seen it. You say he OMGUS on you because he voted you when you voted him. But it's not OMGUS if it has reasons, and he presented reasons (akin to mine, sure, but I can't blame my argument for being good, or you being vote-worthy for being scummy).

Quote
The parroting of everybody else? His malformed suspicions of me?
It is you who is parroting now. The first point is the same about his agreement with my assessment of your plan. The second you call malformed because you don't agree with them. As I originally said, your questions up to here boil down to "why are you ignoring him?", with a side of "he agrees with you!!!". Bah.


Quote
His lack of a vote yesterday?
This one is true, and I hadn't noticed it. JetSquirrel: Why didn't you cast a vote yesterday? Who was scummiest in your mind at end of day one?

Quote
You're going to attribute all that to him being a noob? Noobtells my ass, you're being way too generous. For how meticulous you're being combing over all my posts this is utterly unacceptable. You're deliberately ignoring Jetsquirrel. Why would you do that? The implication is obviously that you two are scum buddies.
What you consider unacceptable or not is one thing about which I don't give a fuck. Overall, he has reeked of noobness, but I've now asked him three questions. I look forward to his responses, and will analyse them with interest when they come.


Quote
Now it's time to reexamine all your other actions in the game in a new light.
Go ahead.

Quote
Why were you doing all that rolefishing at the beginning of Day 2?
Not rolefishing; colourfishing. And I only asked you, because of your day one play. Oh, and I asked Org, as he happened to come in and defend you in the middle of it. He claimed (as most would) "VT, forgot". Hardly a minefield, yes? Regardless of whether it was true or false.

Quote
I highlighted the dangers of it and you stopped, but why did you do it in the first place? Did you know the dangers of it when you posted? I'm thinking you did.
I replied to this earlier to Person. If you feel deeply offended I didn't reply to you with it, let me know and I'll retype it.


Quote
More to come if it occurs to me.
Please hurry. I can't wait.  8-P





Quote from: jim
This is the first time I see you talk about it with less than absolute certainty. Could it be that you are having, at last, second thoughts about it? Or is it rather that, seeing it has outed you as scum, your best bet is to disown it soon before end of day comes?
I've already answered this to IronyOwl. If I thought this question served any game purpose and wasn't just to pump up your ego I would answer it again.
Nooo! You must answer directly to meeee! Your refusal to do so must mean you're scuuuum! Jim.

Bah.

Quote from: jim
...but now that I think of it, seeing it's probably lylo, what would people think about a mass call/colour claim? [...] I'm not actually proposing we do this, but it doesn't seem as crazy as I initially thought. Opinions?
Oh, hey cool. A bad plan. I should give you shit about it for the rest of the game. I think I will.
Leaving aside that I didn't actually proposed it, merely asked for opinions, feel free to ride my ass for it for the rest of the game if I  a) insist on it regardless of evidence of disagreement or drawbacks; b) call people who agree with you that it's bad "buddying scum"; c) refuse to acknowledge hard data proving it doesn't work; d) completely ignore any evidence produced by it the next day.

If I do all that, then I'm probably scum, and people should hang me for it.

Quote
If everybody claims you're just going to want to lynch the Red Sorcerer immediately, when he could very well be town. This plan benefits you a lot more as scum than it does the rest of the town because a) you're tunneling like a mad man on me and anything remotely associated with me is automatically scummy, allowing you the perfect excuse to go after a potentially town sorcerer, and b) you know who to kill in the night if you don't manage to lynch the town sorcerer.
My vote is not the only one that counts. And I'm not as inflexible as you... suggest. Surely if it turns out you or Org are the Red sorcerer, I'd vote the shit out of you, as I already think you're scum, but of the others I'm less sure, and would reevaluate their day play accordingly. But you miss two important elements:
a) I make the point that it could be workable if the sorcerer knows that enough support would help him survive a night kill. I don't know in detail what the powers are, but say that 3 supporters would give kill immunity... then if you claim, and seem townie enough (or the other scummy enough), you could get enough to be immune and out the scum.
b) If we get three people claiming to be PRs, or colour counterclaims, we get more data for scumhunting before the end of the day, as opposed to the rehashing we seem to be doing now.

But whatever. I will not press for this plan harder unless someone thinks it shows some promise. As I said, I don't actually propose it, I want opinions/reactions, and would like alternatives to be able to dig deeper before end of day.


Quote from: jim
How about we don't do that and instead lynch one of many prime targets of suspicion like you and Jetsquirrel.
Knock yourself out.

Quote from: jim
The game isn't going to ride on the power roles claiming right now anyway, it's going to ride on lynching scum today.
Sure, but maybe claims would help to lynch scum? Or maybe not. Whatever, you vote whoever you want, jimmy darling, I hope it helps your bile overflow.
Logged
My soul has been freed by the King of the Mafia.

Zathras

  • Bay Watcher
  • Boogie thinks you being confoosed.
    • View Profile
Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia [Day 2 - Holy Jokerman-EXE Batman!]
« Reply #228 on: November 01, 2010, 09:53:00 pm »

Dear god, this is the worst plan I've ever seen. Scum claim Apprentice No Vote, our last Town Sorcerer claims, and we get ONE full-power town action before he's NKed and we're left wondering who the scum is.

Oh! And next morning everyone claims Apprentice Voted Non-Scum Like We Agreed. How the hell could this tell us anything or not result in our PR dying?

Fair point. See the bolded point in my previous for an option, but as I said I'm not invested in this plan and will abandon it if it's unworkable or lacks support.
Logged
My soul has been freed by the King of the Mafia.

JanusTwoface

  • Bay Watcher
  • murbleblarg
    • View Profile
    • jverkamp.com
Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia [Day 2 - Holy Jokerman-EXE Batman!]
« Reply #229 on: November 01, 2010, 10:33:29 pm »

Current Vote Count

Day ends: 5 pm EST; 3 Nov 2010

Apprentices should send me a PM with the school they plan to assist by the end of the day.
Assists can be changed via PM until the day ends.



Jim Groovester (2) - Jetsquirrel, Zathras
Org (2) - Jim Groovester, Mr.Person
Eduren (1) - IronyOwl
IronyOwl (1) - Eduren
Jetsquirrel (0) -
Mr.Person (0) -
Zathras (0) -

Not Voting: Org



Let me know if I missed anything.
Logged
You may think I'm crazy / And I think you may be right
But life is ever so much more fun / If you are the crazy one

My blog: Photography, Programming, Writing
Novels: A Sea of Stars, Confession

Jim Groovester

  • Bay Watcher
  • 1P
    • View Profile
Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia [Day 2 - Holy Jokerman-EXE Batman!]
« Reply #230 on: November 01, 2010, 11:39:14 pm »

IronyOwl, since you think Zathras' plan is awful, do you think he is scummy for suggesting it? It is a very anti-town plan, and there is a player in this game who has accused another player of being scum for proposing an anti-town plan. But this one's even worse.


SUMMARY

Since this is spiraling completely out of control I'll summarize the points I'm actually interested in hearing your response about, to hopefully reduce this down back to a manageable level.

Jetsquirrel - Since Jetsquirrel is a completely incompetent noob who can't string together a coherent thought, I have several issues with you thinking he is town.
  • Can you believe that he examined all your evidence closely, weighed all the options, made a reasoned judgment, and then agreed with you? Because otherwise it is buddying.
  • If you believe point 1, why did he not vote for me during Day 1 when you originally presented your case, and why did he only vote me when I voted him? Otherwise, it's an OMGUS.
  • Jetsquirrel is parroting many players and has done no scum hunting on his own, even if you say he agrees with them. Why do you believe he's town when he's not doing the critical town job?
  • Aggression is an important point of his in his argument on why I am scum. You admitted it is not a scum tell, at most a null tell. Why are his suspicions not malformed then?
  • He is deliberately lurking. Is he still town now that I've pointed this out, even considering that he's presumably seen your questions?
  • Given 5, why give him so much slack for being a noob? He's not trying to play the game at all. This is an immense problem, wouldn't you agree?

There's one other thing. With your colourfishing/rolefishing and the plan you suggested, you're expressing a more than healthy interest in the town's power roles. Why? Is it so that you can identify the remaining town sorcerer so that you can eliminate him immediately, especially considering JTF's insinuations that the game can continue past lylo if the town sorcerers remain alive?

Sure, my plan called for inadvertently buffing up the scum school (at least according to me), but I never tried to find out who the town sorcerers were. Very scummy, Zathras.
Logged
I understood nothing, contributed nothing, but still got to win, so good game everybody else.

Zathras

  • Bay Watcher
  • Boogie thinks you being confoosed.
    • View Profile
Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia [Day 2 - Holy Jokerman-EXE Batman!]
« Reply #231 on: November 02, 2010, 12:44:19 am »

IronyOwl, since you think Zathras' plan is awful, do you think he is scummy for suggesting it? It is a very anti-town plan, and there is a player in this game who has accused another player of being scum for proposing an anti-town plan. But this one's even worse.
IronyOwl! If you agree with his argument, you are buddying him! You'll be both scum!!1!

8-P

Seriously, if it doesn't work, let's drop it. Pardon me for being creative and thinking aloud for alternatives. I did find Irony's argument persuasive (Oh noes!! I'm buddying him! Bad, bad Zathras!), so I officially drop it. If someone sees it as promising, they'll have to resuggest it.


Quote
spoiler=Response to Zathras, point for point, mega-spoiled for length. Seriously, this thing is huge.
No! Don't spoiler it! Walls of text are fun! You like seeing your arguments quoted again and again, don't deny it!

Quote from: jim
Oh, you are one high maintenance little bitch, aren't you?
lol u mad
This makes me really happy. Ain't so fun being on the receiving end, is it?
It's just as fun, you baiting little bitch. I don't get angry, at least not in games, and the receiving end is fine - it's the only end you've given me the whole game. Keep it up. It's more like your quip during D1 about that "smug grin on my face". It's still there. But I'm glad you're happy.

Quote from: jim
Quote for quote sparring isn't exactly the most fun thing to do in a mafia game. I don't know how you feel on the subject.
Oh I hate it. Despise it. With a passion. You should stop it or I'll get reaaaally mad.


Quote
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you use FoSes to point out suspicious behavior without necessarily thinking the other player is scum, as part of asking questions and getting information. I generally think of FoSes as players you are seriously determining whether or not they are scum. So to FoS everybody in the game with one exception is extremely noteworthy, because that would mean there is one player in the game without qualification that you think is town. I was very interested to know why.
You read too much into it. I FoS to get attention from the target. Why I want attention may be a variety of reasons, but it's essentially the same as bolding their name. If I want to say they are scum but I can't vote them (because I'm voting a scummier one, or whatever), I usually make that obvious from context.


Quote from: jim
Or were you and Eduren buddying here?:
JG and Eduren exchange.
Finding other's arguments persuasive is not buddying. Seeking agreement is the reason one presents arguments. But I am open to the possibility, thus my last question to him. You did see it, didn't you?
Blah blah fair point we're in agreement here blah blah let's move on.
Glad you grant the point. I'll go over this and the other JS stuff on your summary later.

Quote from: jim
This is fine, but let me point out that he's avoiding the game. Compare his last post to when he was last online.
This is a good point. JanusTwoface, please prod JetSquirrel. It'll be 36 hours since his last post an hour or so after this post goes live. (Bigger to make sure you see it, as it's buried in a wall of text).


Quote from: jim
a) I make the point that it could be workable if the sorcerer knows that enough support would help him survive a night kill. I don't know in detail what the powers are, but say that 3 supporters would give kill immunity... then if you claim, and seem townie enough (or the other scummy enough), you could get enough to be immune and out the scum.
Several big ifs there. The town sorcerer being immune to nightkills wouldn't be enough, there would have to be some other additional advantage like an inspect or something like that. What's the likelihood that a town sorcerer would get kill immunity and an inspect from being fully buffed up? I honestly don't know.
I don't either. The PRs should know, and if it is the case, and they feel safe enough about it, they may choose to resuggest the mass claim. I admit I am now of two minds about it, but at least is one more idea on the table.

Quote from: jim
Jetsquirrel - Since Jetsquirrel is a completely incompetent noob who can't string together a coherent thought, I have several issues with you thinking he is town.
This I vehemently dispute. I do not think he's town. I asked Eduren once, long ago "although JS has seemed townie enough to me, I may be missing something". Up to that point, he had seemed townie enough to me, then, partly thanks to your help, I realised several points I had missed before ("maybe I'm missing something" was the point of the question -- your answers were more helpful than Eduren's, though they took a more torturous road). I have since asked him about the stuff you so kindly pointed out that I had indeed missed: "are you buddying me? Why didn't you vote D1?" (and annex points).

I have never said he was town. I said that I didn't have anything on him yet, asked others for pointers on what I had missed, and you helpfully obliged. I now no longer think he "seems townie enough", at least until he answers my pending questions to my satisfaction.

Given this, let me summarise your summary. Answers inline in purple.

Quote
  • Can you believe that he examined all your evidence closely, weighed all the options, made a reasoned judgment, and then agreed with you? Because otherwise it is buddying. -- I believe either one can be true, and I've asked him the question. But JS: what do you think of this?
  • If you believe point 1, why did he not vote for me during Day 1 when you originally presented your case, and why did he only vote me when I voted him? Otherwise, it's an OMGUS. -- I don't believe point 1, and as I said I hadn't noticed he wasn't voting by end of day. It is possible however, that people saw your scummy actions on D2 (your refusal to analyse or even acknowledge the data from the plan and the night results, plus all the other stuff) as the nail that closed your scummy coffin, turning suspicion into a vote. Whether this is true of JS or not, it's for him to say.
  • Jetsquirrel is parroting many players and has done no scum hunting on his own, even if you say he agrees with them. Why do you believe he's town when he's not doing the critical town job? -- I do not believe he's town. Never did.
  • Aggression is an important point of his in his argument on why I am scum. You admitted it is not a scum tell, at most a null tell. Why are his suspicions not malformed then? -- His failure to see your aggression as a null tell is a noob tell of his. It's thus a null tell on him as well.
  • He is deliberately lurking. Is he still town now that I've pointed this out, even considering that he's presumably seen your questions? -- I do not believe he's town, and have requested him prodded.
  • Given 5, why give him so much slack for being a noob? He's not trying to play the game at all. This is an immense problem, wouldn't you agree? -- It is a problem, hence the questions to him, and indeed my original request for "I'm missing something", which has now been satisfied.
I fully agree that JetSquirrel should come, face the music, and answer the now multiple questions addressed at him.


Quote from: jim
There's one other thing. With your colourfishing/rolefishing and the plan you suggested, you're expressing a more than healthy interest in the town's power roles. Why? Is it so that you can identify the remaining town sorcerer so that you can eliminate him immediately, especially considering JTF's insinuations that the game can continue past lylo if the town sorcerers remain alive?
Yes, yes it is. Darn. You got me. Good job.

8-P

Logged
My soul has been freed by the King of the Mafia.

Jetsquirrel

  • Bay Watcher
  • In the end, i will win.
    • View Profile
Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia [Day 2 - Holy Jokerman-EXE Batman!]
« Reply #232 on: November 02, 2010, 01:39:31 am »

no need to prod man i just dont have always time to post, il post something after school

Mr.Person

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia [Day 2 - Holy Jokerman-EXE Batman!]
« Reply #233 on: November 02, 2010, 02:33:49 am »

I'll have to talk more, but the overall opinions are that I don't know how to read Zathras, Org and Jetsquirrel have been gone and scummy regardless, Jim's being overly cautious with his responses, and IronyOwl and Eduren are attacking each other with stupid useless shit that in no way helps me to tell anything about the two.

I'm guessing Eduren is town. I'm sure Org is scum based on his wishy-washy behavior. Next guess is Jetsquirrel based entirely on Jim Groovester's arguments. After that I'd look at IronyOwl because I have a bad feeling. Zathras and Jim I'm neutral about for now.

@Zathras: The "either-or situation" you claim to be in Jim's imagination is oh-so-very real. You basically said "lynch me or Jim", which is frankly bullshit. As a townie it's a bad idea since it steals the spotlight and if Jim's not actually scum, you've just made the town lose. It actually makes sense as scum, however, since even if you do get lynched, you're basically giving every other player a free pass to lurk the rest of the day. And what do you give up to forcibly end all talking? Slightly increased odds of getting lynched. You'd also guarantee the scum sorcerer doesn't get lynched.

On that note, I think you're just very, very misguided about some things. Specifically, you still believe aggressiveness to be a null-tell when it's definitely a town-tell. Actually, I should qualify that. Real aggression is a town tell. Fake aggression is a scum tell. The real stuff is usable to figure out alignments and get certain players lynched based on the results gleamed from the questioning. Fake aggression is used to get the scummiest players lynched while avoiding looking scummy in the process. It's your job to tell the two apart, not just look at aggression and ignore it.

In any case, me and you not seeing eye-to-eye on certain things is making it somewhat hard for me to figure out if the stuff you do is because you're scum or because you don't see any problems with what you're saying and doing. I'm leaning towards the latter right now. These kinds of differences are probably why you and Jim butted heads at the beginning of the game, by the way, so I want both of you to look at all the evidence you have against each and decide if you really still think the other is scum. I say this because I really do think the two of you are in a townie vs townie argument when your energies are better spent actually catching the scum.

@Jim: Why are you pretending you're voting Org as a prod vote? Jetsquirrel has also been lurking, why not hold your vote and request some prods on both players? Org hasn't done anything recently to arouse suspicion, so I'm forced to assume you changed your vote because you don't think you can get Jetsquirrel lynched. Why are you being so defensive that you're willing to shift your vote around to not get lynched?

@Jim and Zathras and IronyOwl, I think, and probably everyone else too: There's a difference between active lurking and lurking. Make sure you're not confusing the too when you accuse me of lurking. I don't mind accusations of active lurking as long as you can show that I've been on the site and not posted and/or that I'm not talking as much as I should be. Even if you can't show it, that's something, just know that I'm going to say I've been as active as I can be and then we're at an impasse unless you bring something else for me to talk about.

Currently the case is "you're not posting very much" to which all I can say is "I don't post very much compared to some other people but I have read every post and voted Org with reasons I've clearly stated. As far as I'm concerned, that's enough."
Logged
Youtube video of the year, all years.
Hmm...I've never been a big fan of CCGs - I mean, I did and still do collect Pokemon cards, but I never got heavily into the battling and trading thing.

By definition that makes you a fan since you still buy them.

Jim Groovester

  • Bay Watcher
  • 1P
    • View Profile
Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia [Day 2 - Holy Jokerman-EXE Batman!]
« Reply #234 on: November 02, 2010, 03:41:29 am »

Jim's being overly cautious with his responses,

Mm? I am? I haven't been trying to be cautious, or at the very least I'm not aware that I have been. Where have I been cautious?

@Jim: Why are you pretending you're voting Org as a prod vote? Jetsquirrel has also been lurking, why not hold your vote and request some prods on both players? Org hasn't done anything recently to arouse suspicion, so I'm forced to assume you changed your vote because you don't think you can get Jetsquirrel lynched. Why are you being so defensive that you're willing to shift your vote around to not get lynched?

Org is more responsive to pressure votes than Jetsquirrel. I can get answers out of him, or at the very least get him to post, if I pressure vote him, and he was moved to posting because of it. Jetsquirrel, on the other hand, could be on the verge of lynching and he wouldn't even make a peep. As for why I didn't request a prod, I briefly thought about it but it didn't occur to me to try. If he hadn't posted by tomorrow I probably would've requested one.

But you're right; there is an element of defensiveness in my vote. I feel like I might be pointlessly lynched because I was the target of a tunnel and then a noob/scum/idiot OMGUSed me. That doesn't particularly appeal to me, so I've been working on it. Best defense and all that. Even still I think with the way I've used my vote today it demonstrates that I'm more concerned with getting answers and placing pressure than trying to save my own skin.

I do suspect Org strongly, though, and want more out of him. He keeps delaying his participation and I've run out of patience for excuses. Even if they're legitimate I'm starting to not care.

In any case, me and you not seeing eye-to-eye on certain things is making it somewhat hard for me to figure out if the stuff you do is because you're scum or because you don't see any problems with what you're saying and doing. I'm leaning towards the latter right now. These kinds of differences are probably why you and Jim butted heads at the beginning of the game, by the way, so I want both of you to look at all the evidence you have against each and decide if you really still think the other is scum. I say this because I really do think the two of you are in a townie vs townie argument when your energies are better spent actually catching the scum.

I basically agree. Even as I was questioning Zathras I kept reaching the conclusion that he was town, but I went through with it anyway on the chance it would actually turn anything up. Not much there.

He tunneled hard and suggested a bad idea. Stuff like that happens all the time. No big deal, if you realize it's happening.
Logged
I understood nothing, contributed nothing, but still got to win, so good game everybody else.

Zathras

  • Bay Watcher
  • Boogie thinks you being confoosed.
    • View Profile
Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia [Day 2 - Holy Jokerman-EXE Batman!]
« Reply #235 on: November 02, 2010, 03:50:06 am »

I basically agree. Even as I was questioning Zathras I kept reaching the conclusion that he was town, but I went through with it anyway on the chance it would actually turn anything up. Not much there.

Hey! Quit being reasonable and get cranking! I demand my point by point rebuttal! Gimme!
Logged
My soul has been freed by the King of the Mafia.

Jim Groovester

  • Bay Watcher
  • 1P
    • View Profile
Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia [Day 2 - Holy Jokerman-EXE Batman!]
« Reply #236 on: November 02, 2010, 04:04:24 am »

Okay.

Point.

Cool.

By.

That's not so bad.

Point.

Huh, I guess that's okay.

Counterpoint.

You really think so?

Snide remark.

That was uncalled for!

Insult.

Your mother!

Reasoned response.

I guess I don't have a problem with that.

Pedantry.

This is going to take forever if you keep analyzing the submotives of my word choice.

Request for baked goods.

You want a cookie?

I didn't have anything in particular to respond to your post about.

It's all pretty much fine.
Logged
I understood nothing, contributed nothing, but still got to win, so good game everybody else.

Zathras

  • Bay Watcher
  • Boogie thinks you being confoosed.
    • View Profile
Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia [Day 2 - Holy Jokerman-EXE Batman!]
« Reply #237 on: November 02, 2010, 04:09:06 am »

HAHAhahaha! I luuurv'it. It hit the spot.   8-)

Reasonable answer to Person coming up tomorrow. Too late tonight.

Cheers!
~z
Logged
My soul has been freed by the King of the Mafia.

Zathras

  • Bay Watcher
  • Boogie thinks you being confoosed.
    • View Profile
Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia [Day 2 - Holy Jokerman-EXE Batman!]
« Reply #238 on: November 02, 2010, 05:46:33 am »


Bah. Can't sleep. You'll get it tonight.

@Zathras: The "either-or situation" you claim to be in Jim's imagination is oh-so-very real. You
basically said "lynch me or Jim", which is frankly bullshit. [...]And what do you give up to forcibly end all talking? Slightly increased odds of getting lynched.
I disagree. The game is on deadlines, not hammers, so even if people were magically compelled to vote one of us, we'd still have until Wednesday to discuss or change our minds. We're not going to "forcibly end all talking". Plus it's not such a binding suggestion, everyone will vote whoever they want. At most what it means is "one of us is surely scum", which is what most of us feel about the IronyOwl/Eduren situation, even if they haven't actually said it. This seems such a trivial point to me that I'm surprised it came up at all, let alone several times. But maybe it's just me, more on this below.


Quote from: Person
On that note, I think you're just very, very misguided about some things. Specifically, you still believe aggressiveness to be a null-tell when it's definitely a town-tell. Actually, I should qualify that. Real aggression is a town tell. Fake aggression is a scum tell. [...]It's your job to tell the two apart, not just look at aggression and ignore it.
I may be misguided about some things, yes; I've only been playing this a few months, so I'm glad for advice. On this, however, I don't agree. Precisely because Real is a towntell and Fake a scumtell, aggression on it's own is a nulltell until you are certain you know the difference, and influenced by other scummitude factors. It's easy for scum to be very realistically aggressive, they just have different target selection. Unless you are reasonably sure it's Real, and not Fake, it's a nulltell. I'm not reasonably sure about Jim's aggression, and claim others shouldn't be either.

I'm not ignoring it. I'm assessing it.



Quote from: Person
In any case, me and you not seeing eye-to-eye on certain things is making it somewhat hard for me to figure out if the stuff you do is because you're scum or because you don't see any problems with what you're saying and doing.
Yes, we have quite different styles. In particular, and I'm very surprised this is not more common, I like to have fun when I'm playing a game. I don't subscribe to the notion that "Mafia is serious business". Sure, don't derail the thread with jokes, and keep playing to win as the primary objective, but don't be afraid to have a chuckle on the way. Some seem to frown at this, or misinterpret me for it sometimes. Such is life, we'll probably meet halfway most of the time.


Quote from: Person
so I want both of you to look at all the evidence you have against each and decide if you really still think the other is scum. I say this because I really do think the two of you are in a townie vs townie argument when your energies are better spent actually catching the scum.

"OK kids, stop it! Apologise and shake hands!"
"Yes, miss Person...."  8-(


Noooo! OK. It's true that most of Jim's Day Two play (except for the plan-related stuff) has been townie enough. I've pushed him, and he's not verbally cracking as scum. It might be better to stop trying. But I have one major problem with this:

Yesterday's Support
Red Magic - 1 Apprentice
Black Magic - 0 Apprentices
White Magic - 1 Apprentice

Even if we discount all the verbal play, there is this. If he is town, and he voted in accordance with his plan, it means that the entire scum team voted "none" or simply forgot. I find this extremely hard to swallow. It would be rank incompetence if they forgot, so much that I find it implausible, or a very cunning gambit, so cunning that I find it implausible as well. Therefore, I have no option but to remain convinced that Jim did vote red, supporting it as scum supporting his scum school. The alternative is too implausible.

This, assuming I'm town, of course, but I know I am, and I'm telling you from my point of view why I can't unvote him. For others to accept this argument, they would need to believe I'm town, so I will stop pushing it. I've said my piece, it's up to you guys to make up your minds. The main piece of evidence is up there, in the start of day post.




I'll have to talk more, but the overall opinions are that I don't know how to read Zathras, Org and Jetsquirrel have been gone and scummy regardless, Jim's being overly cautious with his responses, and IronyOwl and Eduren are attacking each other with stupid useless shit that in no way helps me to tell anything about the two.
We don't disagree that much. This is how I see the situation as of now, in order of descending scummitude, and short impressions (but I'm not calling anyone "town").

Jim (reasons given, red is scum school and so on)
Org (quiet Org is scum Org)
JetSquirrel (lurky, have multiple things to answer for)
Irony (fishy arguments, fishy votes, fishy smell, but nothing firm)
Person (lurky D1, hard to read so far, suspiciously clean nose)
Eduren (fishy arguments, tunneling)


PS: Jim, yes, I forgot to add earlier that I often use blue to colour my second scummiest choice, and that I tend to reiterate who I'm voting and FoSing often. It's just a reminder, I'm not re-voting you.
Logged
My soul has been freed by the King of the Mafia.

Jetsquirrel

  • Bay Watcher
  • In the end, i will win.
    • View Profile
Re: Sorcerer's Apprentice Mafia [Day 2 - Holy Jokerman-EXE Batman!]
« Reply #239 on: November 02, 2010, 10:21:49 am »

Quote
JetSquirrel: What are your thoughts on the IronyOwl/Eduren spat? Who are your top scumpicks as of now? What do you think of Person and Org lurking even more than you?

Ehm the discussion seems fine with some scumtels here and there on both sides, so far they both managed to call each other scum without too much support from anyone. My top scumpicks for now are Jim (still), Org ( for lurking so lng) and mr.person. i say that org lurks hell of a lot more than me bt his answers may be better than mine.

Quote
So, thanks for the remainder. JetSquirrel, are you buddying me, or merely agreeing with the unvarnished truth that is my impeccable analysis?

I'm agreeing with your arguments which are very convincing atleast from my point of view, while some can disagree like jim

Quote
are you convinced Jim is scum or do you just think it likely? What do you think Jim's scummitude says, if anything, about Zathras?

I am clearly convinced that jim is scum due to the things Zathras mentoined and a few other things. Scummitude? I honestly dont think Zathras is scum, he's giving good reasoning, good solid defense and a good scumhunting attitude.

Quote
This one is true, and I hadn't noticed it. JetSquirrel: Why didn't you cast a vote yesterday? Who was scummiest in your mind at end of day one?

I must say Jim and criptfeind(who horribly died) but at that point i still didn't see enough reason to vote as i didn't see enough evidence to label one of them as scum. And is voting neccesary? I see it as a pressure tool and a real vote if you are convinced that some player i scum.


And i may have dropped some tells which jim only sees them as SCUmtells and nothing else, while i'm noob and post stupid answers for a few games straight because i need to learn stuff etc.
And also Jim why are you trying to get Zathras off your back? In the last 2-3 pages you voted for me, later you vote for Zathras and a post later you immideatly vote for org without too much evidence expect heavy lurking which is very suspicious but not neccesarly scummy. I atleast now think that you are really trying to blame someone else for beng scum and shove Zathras away from yourself thus avoiding your own scummy lynch.





Pages: 1 ... 14 15 [16] 17 18 ... 24