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[Mindmaker]

Furthermore, I second the request for an extension.
This whole replacing and coming back from the dead, is making this beginners game unnecessary confusing.

[Vector]

This whole replacing and coming back from the dead, is making this beginners game unnecessary confusing.

You're doing better, and yes, you deserve the extension... but quit bitchin', folks.  The beginners' games here are usually the most cutthroat, fast-paced, and brutal.  The BMs are hard games.  Rather than complaining about the difficulty, try feeling proud of yourself for how well you're doing.

[Mindmaker]

Are you trying to say here we should only look at a player ONLY from a town angle, because nobody is 100% confirmed and this is a horrible way to play as town.

Never said that. Please read my posts again.

Which is funnily enough EXACTLY what Ottofar did as well and he did not even have a legitimate reason nor would he explain himself. If Ottofar did not act how you think a townie should act then why were you so sure he was innocent?

I've explained this several times now and I don't feel like repeating myself.

You just completely palmed this one away without justification. I mean what the heck you don’t get it I want to know what made you so sure that Ottofar was town and saying that he played badly may be an “Outside the Box” reason for thinking he is town but there is no way that could give you the assurance that you had.

Well at least I tried to think about the possibility.
Why didn't you do that?
And if you did, why didn't you share your thoughts?

No you see my point is the only way you’d have a good idea is if you had a scum IC assisting you.

I'm not even sure if they are allowed to do such a thing.
And if they were, I wouldn't make use of it.

Sure, I appreciate constructive criticism, however I don't want anyone to tell me how I'm supposed to play the damn game.
I can think for myself.

So if you were mafia then you would be doing exactly what you have been today then? Except apparently azure is in your way or something?

No, if I was mafia, everything would be different.
Azure would have died in night one.
There would be no annoying stalemate and I would have more room to act on the other players.

Either you didn't read my post properly, or I completely missed what you were trying to say now.

1.   You claim that you certainly knew Ottofar was town despite not having any reason to be assured.

I was quite sure, because of the reasons already posted. The lack of imagination on you side, is hardly my fault.

2.   You did not start defending him until it was almost certain he would be lynched

2 votes is far from certain.
The mafia can achieve 2 votes all by itself, don't forget that.

3.   Since the new day you have started acting a lot more smug and confident and yet bemoaning the fact that the town will lose, which is definitely a scum tell.
You are mafia and that is how you knew Ottofar was town so you defended him after it was almost certain he would be lynched so you could spend all of day two saying “I told you so therefore I am town” Which is a scum tell.

How is this a scum tell?
Is there a rule or something?

I'm annoyed for reasons already stated.
Not one damn player here listened to me, although I was right all along.
You didn't even gave my theory a chance.

You're telling me I must be mafia, based on that what I did, would be an unreasonable thing for a townie to do.
However I disagree with you on that.

[KaminaSquirtle]

I don't have much time now, so this'll be short, I'll write a more detailed post when I have time later.

Murphy's defense.

My main point isn't each one of those examples, it's the combination of them and how they mesh with EleJet's behavior over the thread that incriminates you.  Will counter each individual point later.

P.P.S. Please stop posting unspoilered images. They make the topic harder to read. Or make them smaller at least.

Ok, will do.

As I've said, a plausible scenario is that scum-Azure's gambit wasn't a gambit initially, but a genuine attack, which he later dropped and then claimed it to be a trap in which Ottofar has fallen

Wait.
I suddenly realized that this couldn't be a genuine attack. A scum can't attack another scum genuinely.
It means that my "Azure=scum" scenario is wrong.

Now I'm truly confused.
Okay, still I'll try to think everything through a bit later. Will we get an extension due to the replacement?

It then would have been a gambit, which was engineered to look like a genuine attack.  However, the way I see it, Azure has been the only thing keeping you guys scumhunting at this point.  Why not let the day pass with little-to-no scumhunting, so us townies are totally confused?  Honestly I think Azure is town.

My tunnel vision shames me  but my money is still on Mindmaker/Jet

You'll lose that bet, buddy.

Why Mind, though?  Granted I haven't fully analyzed this pairing, but he looks like frustrated town to me, as I (think?) I mentioned in my argument.

Ok, I've run out of time, will be back later to finish up this train of thought.

[Azure Sepulchre]

Gaaaaaaaaaah why didn't I notice that..! >.<

If there had been anything in that list - anything - that should have been obvious, it was that. I iz tardd 

Ah, well. Feel pretty bad for him. He'd come pretty close to winning until you showed up with your damned logic and giant Phoenix Wright billboard.

You went with me on Otto, which went to hell instead; I'll go with you on this, sayin' as it makes so much damn sense anyway. Unvote Jet, Vote Murphy. Well done on your epic win, sirrah. Perhaps I should strive to be dead more often myself, if it proves to be so enlightening.

This hipocisy ends now, Azure.
You won't accuse others for not providing any reasons on their own for voting and then do the same thing yourself.
This vote stays here until you elaborate why you are voting for Murphy yourself, or at least deliver a heavily  commented version of Kaminas theory.

The way it looks now, is that you tried to rally support against me and as I didn't work out as you expected, you started looking for an easier target.
First elaborate, then vote.

Sure thing. I just woke up and have maths, though, so don't expect it right now.

I will say two things, though; Murphy and Jet being the scum simply merges together far more smoothly than you and Jet being scum. Besides, we have a free lynch at the moment. Kamina trusted me with Otto, so I'll trust him with this. And if it's wrong, you can always try to lynch me tomorrow. Or, if you wind up dead, other people can if Murphy flips as town.

[Flintus10]

Okay I think I will back off Mindmaker for now so unvote, you havn't really answered my questions in a way that gets rid of all suspicion nor have you provided good reasoning but I am beggining to suspect that it is mearly a clash on the way we play the game and inexperienced tells, rest assured if either Murphy or Jet is town then you will be straight back to number one.

But it seems we aren't getting anywhere right now so I will concentrate on Kamina's accusations. and look through them tomorow.

[Flintus10]

I suppose it is only fair that I still answer your questions so here goes.

Well at least I tried to think about the possibility.
Why didn't you do that?
And if you did, why didn't you share your thoughts?

Actually I am gona need you to explain this one why didn't I do what?

How is this a scum tell?
Is there a rule or something?

I'm annoyed for reasons already stated.
Not one damn player here listened to me, although I was right all along.
You didn't even gave my theory a chance.

You're telling me I must be mafia, based on that what I did, would be an unreasonable thing for a townie to do.
However I disagree with you on that.

It is a scum tell because if we were on sucessful on day one a scum player would bemoan and complain how they were right in order to influence the rest of the town but they would still be quite happy that they had succesfully eliminated a townie and therefor confidence would grow. understand?

[KaminaSquirtle]

Okay I think I will back off Mindmaker for now so unvote, you havn't really answered my questions in a way that gets rid of all suspicion nor have you provided good reasoning but I am beggining to suspect that it is mearly a clash on the way we play the game and inexperienced tells, rest assured if either Murphy or Jet is town then you will be straight back to number one.

But it seems we aren't getting anywhere right now so I will concentrate on Kamina's accusations. and look through them tomorow.

You say that it's a clash in the way you two play the game?
Then this should help:  Both Azure and Flintus, what are your philosophies when playing the game?    What do you consider a scumtell?  How do you think your ideas on playing the game could differ?

Well at least I tried to think about the possibility.
Why didn't you do that?
And if you did, why didn't you share your thoughts?

Actually I am gona need you to explain this one why didn't I do what?

He's asking why you didn't consider the possibility of Ottofar being town.  Way to beat a dead penguin, Mindmaker.

How is this a scum tell?
Is there a rule or something?

I'm annoyed for reasons already stated.
Not one damn player here listened to me, although I was right all along.
You didn't even gave my theory a chance.

You're telling me I must be mafia, based on that what I did, would be an unreasonable thing for a townie to do.
However I disagree with you on that.

It is a scum tell because if we were on sucessful on day one a scum player would bemoan and complain how they were right in order to influence the rest of the town but they would still be quite happy that they had succesfully eliminated a townie and therefor confidence would grow. understand?

Also fits with Mind being pissed off in general, especially with the fact that we had very few leads until I resurrected myself.  And I don't see any confidence from Mind, just anger at the situation, and really wanting to tell everyone HOW STUPID THEY WERE for not agreeing with him in the first place, so we could have gotten more leads.

But seriously, Mindmaker, beating a dead horse won't help town.  While I don't think you're scum at this point, since that invalidates my theory, which at this point works a lot better than the theory of you being scum, you're sure doing a great job of trying to make me change my mind.

[Toaster]

NativeForeigner has replaced ragnarok97071.

Game on!  We're up to full capacity now.  Thanks to all the replacements!

Day has been mod-extended 24 hours.  Please bold extension requests, or I will probably miss them.


Vote Count:

NativeForeigner: {0}
Flintus10: {0}
Mindmaker: {0}
Jetsquirrel: {1} Murphy,
KaminaSquirtle: {0}
Azure Sepulchre: {1} Mindmaker
Murphy: {2} KaminaSquirtle, Azure Sepulchre

Not Voting: NativeForeigner, Jetsquirrel, Flintus10

Day 2 ends Friday 11/5 11 PM EST

[Azure Sepulchre]

Alright, then...

First off, I'd like to point out to Mindmaker that I didn't put into writing during day 1 that I had any suspicions at all that Otto was town because that would automatically make my attack look weak. When attacking someone when you're looking for a lynch, you don't have the convenience of being able to show you're in two minds about them, otherwise town will dismiss your argument as weak-willed hogwash and the scum will know they have a chance of manipulating your opinion. So I attempted to give him a chance the only way that was available - by posing a flood of questions. He answered little, and even the answers contained little more than a dismissive 'whatever', so what did you expect me to do? Think he was town because he blanked me? Pssh.

You say that it's a clash in the way you two play the game?
Then this should help:  Both Azure and Flintus, what are your philosophies when playing the game?    What do you consider a scumtell?  How do you think your ideas on playing the game could differ?

I've already listed what I think are scumtells. As for general philosophy... I'm not great at reading people, particularly through the written medium, so I try to mainly work on logic. Which is why I put more faith in tried-and-tested scum slips than in 'gut feeling' arguments. The fact that I missed Murphy jumping on Otto after Jet had quit the field still rankles. -_- 

As for why I'm butting heads with Mindmaker? Most likely because he plays like an ass. He's tunnelled on me since day 1 and just refuses to let go, even when his argument gets slapped in the face by stupidscum. I mean, fuck, he actually had the balls to declare me the hypocrite after all that crap Jet said! Do you seriously believe Jet, as a normal townie, also knew Otto was town, Mindmaker? Are you just gonna ignore how he spazzed out about Elegy when he started getting pressed in favour of lynching me because I know a winning argument when I see one? I should ignore every scumtell ever unless I think of it first? I only proposed that people think for themselves before relying on others for a vote. Well, I've thought about it, and I'm going with Kamina's argument because it makes more sense than you being scum. What the hell else do you want?

Elaborate why you are voting for Murphy yourself, or at least deliver a heavily commented version of Kaminas theory.

...God damn, son. You be wearin' me out. -_-

You know what? Fuck it. We're pretty much on an accelerated end game here, so my role isn't needed much longer, if it was any use at all.

I'm the Doc. I tried to save Mindmaker night 1 as I figured, if the scum didn't NK me, they'd target my biggest detractor to make me look like an idiot who panics under pressure and kills scary townies. Turns out I'd tried to save the wrong person and I was roleblocked by the scum anyway. This led crecedence (at least to me) to my theory that Mind was scum, as I figured he disliked me enough that - if he couldn't kill me so I could take the heat - he'd at least want a roleblock on me for good measure.

I don't usually play a very aggressive game; I prefer being a lot more quiet and careful than this, being used to playing as the scum more than anything else, but I wanted to hide the Doc is plain sight by being a good deal meaner than I usually am. On the other hand, I didn't realize this might encourage scum to think I was the cop trying to take control of the group, which would explain the roleblock if Mind isn't scum. Since I stupidly said the moment day 2 began that a 'cop with a guilty would be handy right about now', the roleblock would probably be staying on me regardless, so I may as well out.

I was also planning to try to convince scum before night 2 to NK one of the two heavy lurkers as a favour to the game, then I would try to save one of them. If no one died, yay! I have a guaranteed townie. If not, then they weren't much use anyway. If they killed anyone else or if I was roleblocked, then I probably wouldn't have been able to predict it no matter what or it would be irrelevant if I did. Obviously, this all changed when Kamina appeared with his ultra-super-special-awesome scum sheet on Murphy/Jet.

I doubt this'll be enough for Mind anyway, or for anyone else really, so I'll go through Kamina's sheet on a point-by-point basis (although I don't see the purpose, really) and see if I can find a few little scumnuggets of my own.

[Mindmaker]

What do you think of the Jet/Murphy scum team?

Well I could agree on Jet being scum.
He's being far to inconsistent with his answers.

No idea about Murphy though.
He could be just an inexperienced player.
However it's interesting how active he has become, once he got put in the spotlight.

I need to give that idea some proper thought.

I believe you thought that it was Azure and I yes?

Yes, however I might need to reconsider.
Just give me some time to think about it and to read what Azure is about to post.

[Mindmaker]

Okay I think I will back off Mindmaker for now so unvote, you havn't really answered my questions[...]

Well, I'm doing civil service right now.
So when I'm not in transit with the ambulance and there isn't anything to do with the office, I'll go online, read everything that has been posted and try to answer single question.
I'm a bit restricted in doing so as there could be a deployment at any time and key combinations (Copy&Paste) are deactivated (therefore I can answer only one post at a time.

I should be able to address all the questions once I'm home.
During working hours you only can expect to get bits of information from me.

[Azure Sepulchre]

Also, something I just noticed:

I'll play.
Know mafia well, but never played online. Also never played it in English =)
Consider me a beginner.

At the very least he's no complete beginner. He can probably still get off with being new to online games, but assuming the game transfers smoothly from forum to IRL play, such a claim should come under scrutiny.

[Murphy]

It's not like I've ever been in such a heated argument.
What games I had played were much calmer. Also there was much more randomness and less deduction.

I'm the Doc.

Oh, I completely forgot that there could be power roles.
Wiki says doc claim is mafia.

[Azure Sepulchre]

In regular circumstances, you'd be correct. However, I couldn't do anything as Doc since I was roleblocked last night and, if not because I acted like a Cop then because I outright stated what I am, it's gonna stay that way. All I have on me is my vote - someone stole my doctor's bag. ;_;

Figured I may as well be frank with the town, though, if I'm gonna be an impotent power role.