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Author Topic: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O  (Read 14950037 times)

TempAcc

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #109500 on: September 21, 2016, 07:43:12 am »

This can only be solved by a practical experiment. We must capture cinder and substitute enough of his bodyweight for pure ethanol.

Then we all drink him, because ehh, it would be a waste not to :v
I just only noticed this conversation via OOCQ.


wat
We must not waste precious ethanol :v

It occurred to me today, why do todays bedroom tier feminists worship Frida Kahlo?

-snip-
Well Feminist =/= strong and independent.

As well any feminist who would decry "submissiveness" as a negative quality would immediately get on my "List of people who don't know what they are talking about" list... In fact erase feminist and make that anyone... It is just this stupid cookie cutter stuff.

-snarp-

I don't know what a Bedroom-Tier Feminist is, but maybe I qualify? I identify as a Feminist, and there -is- a small magnetic Frida Kahlo paper doll in my bedroom (you can dress her up in traditional Mexican outfits, stick a bunch of monkeys on her, or even give her a pope hat. It's awesome). Neonivek's response is a good thing to consider when thinking about Feminism. That aside, I mostly know Frida Kahlo as an artist, but can think of a few reasons other Feminists might appreciate her as an icon.

I don't know how else to respond to the assertion that she's ugly, but No? I get that it's probably a matter of differences in what we personally find pretty... but if you can't get past her Scandalously Unplucked Eyebrows, consider when she tames that fluffy brow and abides by the Feminine Beauty Standards of the day.

Which brings me to a superficial but obvious point. Take a look at how she represents herself, particularly how she exaggerates the whole eyebrow situation in her paintings: The Broken Column (NOTE: This painting is NSFW). Ignoring the rest of the painting for a moment, it's easy to see that as her saying "To all of you who are trying to tell Women like myself what beauty is, or that it's part of our duty to be 'Pretty' according to some completely arbitrary standard: this is who I am, and I like myself this way." The pressure women are put under to artificially feminize themselves and conform to societal standards of beauty- think all the shaving and exfoliating and hair styling and etc. that are still expected of ladies while in public- that's something which, as evidenced by the Human Centipede comment, is still a pressure that society imposes on Women all the time. Even in the modern context, let alone when she lived, her disinterest in changing her appearance can be seen as Feminist.

Consider that she was born at the turn of the 1900's, when Mexico and much of the world was far more deeply Patriarchal than today. Despite being a survivor of Polio which left her leg disfigured, and living in an era and culture which imposed strict rules on what a Woman was supposed to be, she became one of a handful of female students to enroll in a prestigious school in Mexico, and went on to study science and medicine. She planned to become a doctor, had she not been crippled in a car accident, which damaged her spine and limited her mobility. Instead, she took up painting while she recovered and became a famous artist and a cultural icon in her country. She was politically active, openly bisexual as you said, and all around Kind Of A Badass on several levels.

I'll leave with a short tangent. The Broken Column (the NSFW Portrait linked above) is an autobiographical work of sorts, depicting her spinal injuries as a youth, her feelings toward the slings and arrows of misfortune, and the other health-related hardships she was going through toward the end of her life. Despite that, here's a popular quote I dug up from her diaries, relating to this work. "You must laugh at life... Look very very closely at my eyes... the pupils are doves of peace. That is my little joke on pain and suffering."

The ugly part was my (often offensive) sense of humor at work, not meant to be taken seriously.

However, the rest is honest. Yes, Frida did survive and resist a fair bit of things, but I dont see how exactly she's a feminist icon considering not what she wanted to do or her ideals, but her actions during the second half of her life. She was very dependant on Rivera for most of it, and I'm not talking about financial or material dependence, but emotional. She was completely and utterly submissive to Rivera, to the point he cheated on her multiple times, and then with her sister, and she went on to not only forgive him, but to hate her own sister for the rest of her life, never actualy forgiving her. She only started affairs in order to get back at Rivera and at some point such encounters were even architected by Rivera in order to gain opportunities create contacts with influential people (like that dweeb, Trotsky).

I'm not saying I have the right to tell people what they should like or not. But to this day, even after being peppered with info like the one you brough, from biography to biography, I fail to see how she could be an idol for women's rights and equality among sexes. When I look at her I see an amazing artist that degraded and diminished herself, that flowered through her own talent and became known through Rivera's influence, but was never able to truly break free from his influence, emotionaly dependent and even submissive to the end. Ironically, this is actualy a pretty decent example of third wave feminism, IE girls sitting confortably in someone else's influence and money talking about changing society through hilariously shortsighted and petty actions, but never actualy doing much for women that actualy suffer, like Frida ineffectively trying to "get back" at Rivera by cheating on him because it made her feel better about herself, when he clearly didn't care.

This is actualy a major element of her own art. Her "two fridas" painting, which shows two fridas holding hands, according to her own words, are supposed to represent the frida rivera rejected, and the frida he said he loved. She was so dependent on it her own creativity often broke down due to her relationship fluctuations with Rivera.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 07:50:54 am by TempAcc »
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Neonivek

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #109501 on: September 21, 2016, 07:50:48 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ok once again Feminist =/= Strong and independent.

Being reliant on someone for emotional support and being very submissive to someone is not antithetical to most contemporary feminist thinking (at least none that I'd give the time of day).

The proper feminist response to submissiveness is that a woman has the freedom to be herself whether she be submissive or dominant, strong or weak. It is forcing women into these roles OR hurting women who chose these roles for themselves where the problems arise. This applies to both women and men.

Only lousy feminists, and no I am not going to mince words here, would attack a woman on the grounds that she is weak, submissive, and dependent.

--

As well... So what if she had personal problems and issues surrounding her life? She was a person.

Plenty of Saints were terrible people before they turned their lives around.

If anything the fact that her life was filled with such turmoil and yet she created something good within the time she had... Might actually contribute to it.

So I don't get why there is confusion over why she became a feminist icon after Cinder's response it fills in the gaps pretty well. It is her work that spoke... Not her married life.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 07:59:48 am by Neonivek »
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TD1

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #109502 on: September 21, 2016, 07:58:48 am »

Defining feminism as "what I think it should be" and how feminists act as "how they should act" unfortunately does not work that well.
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TempAcc

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #109503 on: September 21, 2016, 08:03:06 am »

Exactly, but buzzwords aside, the feminists I do (personally) know do define it as a struggle for women's indepence empowerment, something Frida simply wasn't. They're still ok with me, well, at least the ones that respected my right to be critical. Make feminism whatever you want it to be, but whenever someone makes it about independence and empowerment of women and uses Frida Kahlo as a symbol of that, I'll reserve my right to nonstop lel.

Aditionaly feminism might just as well be about pigs flying while suplexing satan, nowadays. There's no many flavours and varieties one might just as well pick their own. From trans critical feminism to magical girl feminism, the lulz flows unhindered.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 08:09:33 am by TempAcc »
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Dutrius

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #109504 on: September 21, 2016, 08:04:16 am »

If there is one reason I don't like the statistic "Only 25% of Kickstarted games ever leave early access" other then being one of arbitrary statistics that hints that they might have gotten it through less than honest methods...

Is that it would include games that are nearly finished, in the middle of development, or that just started.

BOY... I sure do love how terrible statistics are... They are a bottle of lies! Got a popular statistic? Chances are its wrong, misleading, or duplicitous.

MAN I am grumpy right now... I really should get some sleep today.

Remember, 105% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
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Neonivek

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #109505 on: September 21, 2016, 08:07:13 am »

So basically neither of you two know anything about feminism or how it works...

And you think that feminism is basically entirely contained in a Saturday morning girl power episode... Shut the book and call it done.

Instead of going with the majority of contemporary feminist thinking which is about achieving a balance, power ratios, and all that jazz.
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hector13

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #109506 on: September 21, 2016, 08:10:51 am »

Great discussion. "I'm right everyone else is wrong".

Best stop here before the Toad has to get called.
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Tack

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #109507 on: September 21, 2016, 08:10:59 am »

Exactly. One human should never judge or belittle another human just because society tells them to.
They should do it if that human personally inconveniences them!
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TD1

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #109508 on: September 21, 2016, 08:11:53 am »

That's right, we're both completely ignorant of a large, multi-faceted movement whilst you know what its true essence is.  ::)

Anyway, no more from me on this subject. It's a rather volatile subject.
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Neonivek

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #109509 on: September 21, 2016, 08:15:41 am »

That's right, we're both completely ignorant of a large, multi-faceted movement whilst you know what its true essence is.

No... Pretty much.

We have kind of moved on from the whole "Keep women out of the kitchen" and more into "A woman isn't beholden to her gender, but can freely explore it if she wishes".

In fact feminism focuses far more on how women are underappreciated and undervalued then how "Being a mother is bad!"

What your thinking of is Radical-Libertarian Feminism
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BorkBorkGoesTheCode

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #109510 on: September 21, 2016, 08:16:21 am »

Egalitarianism?
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #109511 on: September 21, 2016, 08:16:47 am »

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #109512 on: September 21, 2016, 08:19:13 am »

This discussion is now about Spider-man.
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BorkBorkGoesTheCode

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #109513 on: September 21, 2016, 08:20:46 am »

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spider-Man_(nickname) [ urls with ( ) in them may mess with linking. ]

Spoiler: Spider Man (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: September 21, 2016, 08:57:49 am by BorkBorkGoesTheCode »
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hector13

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Re: Things that made you go "WTF?" today o_O
« Reply #109514 on: September 21, 2016, 08:21:20 am »

What of radical feminism? Women don't need men, men should just go away?

socialist feminism? Women challenging capitalism as well as the patriarchy?

black feminism? Because white people don't know what it's like to be black?

Feminism isn't just one thing man. Politics would be so much easier if every group was only one group, but what you're doing, reducing the struggle of a massive group (half the effin' world, bro) to a singular thing? Makes you look like an idiot.
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