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[Neonivek]

I think it's less about the idea of worship and more about total devotion and dominion to a will utterly alien to you and which clear dialogue is difficult. No offense to religious people, but that's how you get jihads.

Ohh yeah that is part of the "When they do it right". Someone who can make all your dreams come true but who is the total boss of you and commands your every move... IS not a good thing. Heck the Star Trek episode did it well, even ignoring the whole Kidnapping aspect, the god really couldn't give them anything they needed, but even Kirk recognizes that the cost was low.

But the sheer number of times I've seen it where all the god asked for amounts to appreciation and a building in their honor... >_< heaven forgive you pay someone in appreciation.

----

Ok... watched a cartoon where a spell turns everyone around them, including themselves, into dogs.

But what stood out and was actually really smart... is that the reverse spell... is actually in dog. They made the reverse spell, something that the person who used the spell, able to do by making it a series of barks and dog noises.

The sheer number of times a spell renders the person using it incapable of reversing it is immense.

[Descan]

Well if the gods are demonstrably moving in the world then yes I agree that would be silly. See also: atheists/fake scientists who stuff their ears at demonstrably supernatural/magical occurrences in their setting because it's 'not scientific' despite being or affecting the natural world that they could study. (This is why I love magitek worlds where they study and harness magic, like running steam ships off magical never-dying fire, or spaceships using levitation magic, etc)

That said, if the gods are silent, then wasting time, effort, focus, and "well I did my part by praying" on them that could be used on actually fixing the issues IS a time where "we don't need gods" is a good point.

[Rolan7]

...So, a story where the Gods are refusing to fix the world until they get enough worship?  That'd be interesting, exploration of freedom vs benign tyranny, but I've never seen a story like that.

Generally they're just dicks.  They play favorites at best, are tyrannical sadists playing a boardgame at worst (Greek pantheon lul).
So it's reasonable to wrest control back from those jerks before trying to improve the world.

[Flying Dice]

I pretty much don't understand the D: at the Star Wars prequels so...seeing all this is a bit of a WTF for me. As well as Lucas' ego and such.
Can I ask being enlightened as to why?

(I just took it for enjoyment...nudging aside some obvious flaws.)

On the original trilogy, Lucas was surrounded by people who were willing to confront him about his dumb-ass ideas and steer the film in better directions. During the filming of the prequels, he was too famous for anyone to want to risk arguing against him. The prequels are full of pandering, idiotic plotlines, terrible character-drama, &c., and they're like that because that's what Lucas wanted. The lightsaber battles in the original trilogy were symbolic and artful; the lightsaber battles in the prequels were YODA JUST DID A BACKFLIP OMG SO KOOL. There was a fundamental failure to make the audience care about Anakin and Padme.

A guy did a series of reviews of them devoted to highlighting a lot of this. But here are some select scenes using interview/inside-filming footage.

Staff reactions to Episode 1.
"It's like poetry." -G. Lucas
The most important point. Watch this if nothing else.

[Akura]

I find a lot of the "We don't need gods anymore" storylines to be... rather silly.

If only because it is once again attributing something not inherent in the idea to it.

"We don't need gods in our modern world!"

Yes... thank you soap box man... Yes we don't need someone who can
1) Fix global warming
2) Feed the hungry
3) Cure the sick
4) Fish up resources

All for what? making a building for him and telling him how much we appreciate it? OHH NO!

Not that I haven't seen it done well mind you. Just like "Magic versus Technology" a lot of the time they just upgrade magic to superstition even when it is an established fact... and they attribute gods to religion, even when the existence of say... Thor doesn't really constitute a religion in it of itself.

I liked Grandia II's take on this.

Spoiler: Major plot spoilers (click to show/hide)

Granas was a man who achieved godhood. He did all that - gave everyone everything they wanted in exchange for worshiping him. The result was that everyone was happy, but human cultural development became dead-stop stagnant.

Valmar, Granas' partner, saw this, didn't like it, and decided to do something about it. Using the same method Granas did, Valmar became a god, then challenged Granas. The result was a war that apparently lasted a week, fought in space using robot lolis and tentacle monsters - I swear this is true, and I think Granas had the tentacle monsters since one of your party members, Tio, is a robot loli built in one of Valmar's factories(and later, you find more, dead robot lolis that attacked Granas' flagship) - which had the end result of a fuckhuge canyon splitting most of the world apart, and the world entering a roughly 10,000 year period of decay ruled by a corrupt church(though the corruption seems to have taken hold only recently).

I'm pretty sure the major idea was that neither one was wrong(though Valmar is the devil figure in the game), their ideals were completely the opposite of one another and both had the will and means to enforce them. In the end, the heroes decide that gods really weren't necessary.

Breath of Fire IV had another good go at this.

Spoiler: Again, more plot spoilers (click to show/hide)

About halfway through the game, you encounter a small tribe who summoned most of the dragons(who are gods who have decayed) you see in the game. While each dragon supposedly manages some aspect of nature, they don't really need to. The Empire(before it was an Empire, apparently, as Fou-Lu founded it) also created a method to summon gods, only they royally screwed it up hard. They did it twice, one time created Deis, goddess without a physical form who must possess others to have any influence(she inhabits Ershin, a suit of environmental armor her influence accidentally made sentient). The other created schism of Fou-Lu and Ryu.

Fou-Lu decided that the world does not need the dragons any more because the Empire abused their(namely his) power and the Alliance probably would have abused the dragons' power if they were even aware of them. Whichever personality is dominant in the end determines how he deals with them. If Ryu wins, he/they banish the dragons(they go willingly, apparently, except Deis who stays). If Fou-Lu wins, he kills everyone. As in, everyone, everyone.

[scrdest]

Playing Oblivion lately, I am beginning to wonder what's the point in being up to date with games. Sure, you will miss out on the water cooler chat. On the other hand:

- You usually can get the game cheaper
- It's largely unfucked by the developer
- It's largely unfucked by the fans where the above failed
- If the game's moddable, there's already a decent community with a range of good mods
- You can run the game at max performance on a reasonably midrange machine instead of a supercomputer with a jet engine strapped on for cooling

[Reelya]

Yeah, if it was fun when it was new and buggy as hell, and your PC barely chugged along playing it, then clearly it's a lot more fun playing it now at silky-smooth frame rates with up to date patches and a few of the best usability mods. For consoles that wasn't an issue, until the double-edged sword of being able to patch games online made them start shipping buggy crap as well in order to stay competitive.

Plus by not shelling out $80-100 dollars and waiting in line, you can buy more stuff and avoid the bullet of "I f-ing waited in line for 6 hours for this overhyped buggy piece of shit!?"

[NJW2000]

But you aren't gonna be the only guys on earth not buying fallout 5 when it comes out, are you? Not after they drop all those leaflets from space?

[Neonivek]

The issue I find with the "Gods aren't needed" storyline I guess

Is that it is kind of an apologist approach to modernity.

Everything revolves around proving that contemporary living is right! and shoves the plot, motivations, and characters are set up that way.

Now Actraiser did this the best. Simply by having the god known as "The Master" be a truly benevolent deity who does what he does for the sake of humanity and worship is done willingly rather then asked for. So when he defeats all evil and raises humanity to the point where they can take care of themselves he "goes to sleep" and slowly but surely everyone forgets about him and his statue (his sleeping form) slowly decays. It was actually incredibly depressing to me. Second game especially because the Master pretty much sacrifices everything to help these people who will so easily forget about him.

Then again "truly benevolent deities" who aren't ineffectual nature gods... are pretty dang rare in videogame fiction.

[Frumple]

In any fiction, and actual religious beliefs beyond that. Not just videogame ones, heh. The vast majority of gods, in any medium, with any degree of assumed existence, are, broadly speaking, jackasses that maybe do humans (/other applicable sophants) a good turn occasionally. Exceptions are... rare.

[Graknorke]

Truly benevolent deities isn't compatible with conflict, unless said deity is limited or opposed by something of comparable power.

[Mr. Strange]

Spoiler: Major plot spoilers (click to show/hide)

The result was a war that apparently lasted a week, fought in space using robot lolis and tentacle monsters.

I have no idea what Grandia is, but that plot sounds a lot like Japanese Entertainment.

[Neonivek]

Truly benevolent deities isn't compatible with conflict, unless said deity is limited or opposed by something of comparable power.

And the staple of bad fiction is pointless drama and weak conflict.

I remember a time I asked for help with writing and I was being told that I was avoiding conflict, and they were probably right, but in my mind I was avoiding pointless conflict... putting people at odds for no reason other then to do it.

Remember the deity doesn't mean all powerful.

The Master, one of the most benevolent deities in fiction, was against creatures and demons many times stronger then him. In the second he has to sacrifice everything just to have a chance against the great evil that threatens humanity.

One Punch Man is a god. Yet his Manga didn't end after the first issue

[endlessblaze]

Speaking of, does anyone know of any books where the main characters (including the enemy/s) are physical gods?
I Just can't think of any and it's been to long since I read an actual book.

[Neonivek]

Speaking of, does anyone know of any books where the main characters (including the enemy/s) are physical gods?
I Just can't think of any and it's been to long since I read an actual book.

Quite a few... but how far up the ladder do you mean? Like Omnipotent or like Norse?