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[LeoLeonardoIII]

weird, your jaded output is remarkably like my jaded output. Wanna go out into the desert with me and say we found a few golden scrolls? We could get this thing rolling!

[wierd]

Naw, the Mormons anf Scientologists have that angle covered pretty good, and the scientologists are KNOWN for doing everything short of murder to get rid of the competition.

[Willfor]

“Why is it okay for pop stars and rappers who pour their filth into the minds of our youth, to live in luxury homes and have nice things, but a pastor is supposed to live like a pauper?” asked Elevation member Lori Carpenter on Facebook.

Because there are any number of people who could have used the money that went into making that house. Like the poor who we're supposed to be supporting.

There's a difference between comfortable living and complete excess, and this pastor has crossed it going 110mph in my opinion.

I'm not a fan of megachurches in general though.

[Tiruin]

I'm unsure how that's crossing it though..(but I don't know Lori Carpenter or Elevation or whatnot) but

but a pastor is supposed to live like a pauper

seems more like a generality.

..If there's no context behind the speaker, that is. Unless...I'm missing that said speaker is connected to the recent rant and all.

[Bauglir]

Well, another failed attempt to fix my USB ports without reinstalling Windows has resulted in, once again, breaking Windows so hard I need to reinstall it. This should not be this difficult.

[wierd]

The bible actually does have a considerable amount of direct instruction from the christ concerning material, earthly wealth and the chances that willfully holding onto it instead of electing a more mendicant life has for someone seeking admission to heaven.

There's also a long littany of parables and psalms about the subject.

The bible outright says that these people are decievers, and states that the christ will deny them when they attempt to enter heaven.

I am actually an agnostic, but had a very strong protestant upbringing; I know what's in that silly book much better than most people I have met.

Given that specific citations would not be proper for this thread, or even this site, I'll just state that references are available via PM by request, and then we can move on.

[Willfor]

On the one hand, I am pretty salty about pastors who live far above the poverty line without trying to lift a good number of those poor to a comfortable life. It's generally not right in my opinion. That's what my comment was directed toward.

However, on further reading of the article (instead of skimming) there's another whole problem. Churches are tax exempt, and any church worth its salt will generally itemize its expenditures, or give a rough idea of where the money you give to it goes. Because they're accountable to the congregation, the people who put money into it. This one doesn't have open books, and is acting in bad faith (no pun intended), and this kind of shit is generally why people try to come after the tax exemption for all churches. The ideal is for a church to be non-profit, and a lack of transparency is problematic. This church tends to sound more like a corrupt corporation at its top levels.

I probably should have reacted that part.

[nenjin]

The bible actually does have a considerable amount of direct instruction from the christ concerning material, earthly wealth and the chances that willfully holding onto it instead of electing a more mendicant life has for someone seeking admission to heaven.

Yeah, I've heard some of those parables. Something about burying your wealth instead of multiplying it being sinnful because you're not living up to your potential, or something. I've always taken that to be proof positive that the Bible is the product of the world of humans. Because that sounds like the kind of thing a landowner would teach his kids.

[Tiruin]

I'd also agree with you on the things in the book--its more on the interpretation (and the time where the context was made..so it's not actually right to say that the bible advocates slavery for example).

...Sometimes, stuff needs context.

Spoiler: Sorry, couldn't resist. (click to show/hide)

The bible actually does have a considerable amount of direct instruction from the christ concerning material, earthly wealth and the chances that willfully holding onto it instead of electing a more mendicant life has for someone seeking admission to heaven.

Meaning that earthly stuffs = temptation, and the thoughts that they bring...
It's not that rich and much-stuff people has a detrimental 'effect' to those seeking admission to heaven, but...its in the behavior with how they use it.
Words, why do you abandon me here when I wish to explain this further. :I
^{But I really believe wierd and I are thinking on the same wavelength.}

Yeah, I've heard some of those parables. Something about burying your wealth instead of multiplying it being sinnful because you're not living up to your potential, or something. I've always taken that to be proof positive that the Bible is the product of the world of humans. Because that sounds like the kind of thing a landowner would teach his kids.

Subjectivity D:
It's in how it is interpreted.

However, on further reading of the article (instead of skimming) there's another whole problem. Churches are tax exempt, and any church worth its salt will generally itemize its expenditures, or give a rough idea of where the money you give to it goes. Because they're accountable to the congregation, the people who put money into it. This one doesn't have open books, and is acting in bad faith (no pun intended), and this kind of shit is generally why people try to come after the tax exemption for all churches. The ideal is for a church to be non-profit, and a lack of transparency is problematic. This church tends to sound more like a corrupt corporation at its top levels.

Wasn't it stated in law (well, it's in our constitution here) that the church and the state should be...err, separate?

[Willfor]

That doesn't really stand up to logic, unfortunately. Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's. If you are making an income, and there is income tax, then that income will be taxed. That's what it comes down to. The thing it comes back to is, like I said, the church is ideally a non-profit organization. A pastor's housing allowance and salary comes from their services rendered to that organization. If there's financial wrongdoing rampant enough among churches it would be very hard to keep all the exemptions. Bad apples spoiling the bunch, etc.

[nenjin]

Yeah, I've heard some of those parables. Something about burying your wealth instead of multiplying it being sinnful because you're not living up to your potential, or something. I've always taken that to be proof positive that the Bible is the product of the world of humans. Because that sounds like the kind of thing a landowner would teach his kids.

Subjectivity D:
It's in how it is interpreted.

Yes, quite. In this case, it was interpreted this way by an investment banker trying to convince people gun shy about investing their money to do so. With him.

The Bible is quite handy when you subjectively derive meaning from its contents.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Wasn't it stated in law (well, it's in our constitution here) that the church and the state should be...err, separate?

Church and state, not "religious-themed business and state". If they trade in goods, no matter what those goods are, they must be taxed. It's no different from a church losing their tax-exempt status because they decided to become a political religious organization. Only the religion is separate.

[AlleeCat]

I want investigative journalism. I want journalists poking and prodding. I want ten thousand Woodwards and ten thousand Bernsteins pounding the pavement and rattling the doorknobs. Journalism is the cure for corruption, and boy are we sick.

Well for one thing, if a politician is corrupt, they probably aren't above paying journalists to keep their noses out of it, and journalists will usually take that money because they are underpaid and overworked.
Plus, not all journalism is good. Unless you have a completely unbiased source of news, (which is actually rather rare in the States) a journalist will usually try and put a spin on something in order to promote their own ideals and/or political views.

[nenjin]

You know, I didn't think about it until now, but I guess I have some input on this pastor thing.

See, my grandfather was a pastor. A wealthy one. At least a millionaire at some point. He didn't have a megachurch....but it was definitely a nice, modern church. He built his wealth as a businessman/restauranteur before becoming a pastor, and it is impossible for me to know how much of his wealth came from one place or another. But he was old school. I don't think he made much if anything off the church. What he did make usually went back into it, and he kept his own finances separate. When he passed, my family's affiliation with the church pretty much ended.

But that generally explains my reaction to the intersection of money and religion. If I'd asked him I suppose he might have said his success was divinely inspired, or that God was at least watching out for him when he wasn't religious so he could get to his real life's work....but I don't think he would have ever denied that it was actual work that made him wealthy, and I think he would have found the idea of wealth earned on the backs of his congregation repugnant. He also had a Board of Elders to answer to.

When you combine evangelicalism with business, I think it confuses your motivations because they go hand-in-hand to the point they're indistinguishable. It's even further confused when the message becomes "God wants you to be wealthy. Wealth is an expression of God's favor." Thinking like that swiftly becomes self-serving and ultimately indefensible.

Well for one thing, if a politician is corrupt, they probably aren't above paying journalists to keep their noses out of it, and journalists will usually take that money because they are underpaid and overworked.

Eh.....I highly doubt any public figure stoops to trying to bribe the person running the story. It's more much efficient and untraceable to pressure their superiors into suppressing the story. (Usually with the threat of cutting off access.) Unless you've done something really, really foul, that's generally enough to, if not kill a story, take the teeth out of it. More than a few journalists have found their stories altered by the time it goes through copy, unbeknownst to them.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

When you combine evangelicalism with business, I think it confuses your motivations because they go hand-in-hand to the point your motivations become indistinguishable. It's even further confused when the message becomes "God wants you to be wealthy. Wealth is an expression of God's favor." Thinking like that swiftly becomes self-serving and ultimately indefensible.

Ah yes, prosperity gospel. Truly fucked up thinking. I've seen a few like that who were also dominionists/christian reconstructionists, they're the really scary "these people would probably put everyone not like them in camps if they could get away with it" type.

Speaking of rage and prosperity gospel, Preachers of LA. (I don't advise clicking that Wilfor, the amount of camel needle-threading is maximized.)