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[Josephus]

Psh, everyone knows having to pay money for something makes it intrinsically better.

capitalism fuck yeah

[Loud Whispers]

14 year old Princess who is one of the last heirs of an ancient bloodline that was nearly ended by an usurper. Has silver hair and purple eyes and is so beautiful men throw themselves at her feet. Has three pet dragons that love her like she's their mother and she can't be burned by their fire. Her boyfriend is twice her age and has blue hair. Her family was all killed by the usurper and she wants revenge.

Her only weakness is that she's so beautiful that everyone wants to have sex with her.

Don't forget the whole determined brutal revenge plans she has going. Though in that universe, it's really just a plus.

[Josephus]

If you don't have brutal revenge plans in ASoIaF, you're probably already dead.

[nenjin]

People who whine about all these problems fanfiction supposedly intrinsically has apparently hasn't seen much professional media either. Every single complaint levied at fanfiction exists in published books, movies, games, etc. The only difference is fanfiction has a high number of amateur writers; they make the same mistakes, just more of them due to inexperience.

Someone wants to send their fanfic to print.........

[kaijyuu]

No, mine sucked and I'm willing to admit that


My fangame, though...

[Leafsnail]

They make the same mistakes far more frequently and far more severely.  And almost ubiquitously.  The orgasms thing is part of the idealised view of sex that is to some extent cultural, which does actually affect traditional media about as much as fanfiction.  That doesn't mean you can generalise it to be about all the mistakes fanfiction makes.

[penguinofhonor]

"Signs you are in a fanfiction" does not mean that something is unique to fanfiction. I am not always speaking in absolutes. Chill out.

[kaijyuu]

All I'm really saying is you'd get about the same amount of crap if you looked at the work of a creative writing 101 class. Whether the work is original, derivative, free, or costs money is irrelevant; it's the fact you're dealing with amateur writers that is the root of the problem. There's no problem that is "nearly ubiquitous" to fanfiction except inexperience. Everyone starts somewhere (most often in the "terrible" category), and fanfiction is an excellent place to find feedback.


And as a side note, if Twilight proves anything, it's that conventional literary analysis wisdom is rather flawed. It breaks tons of "rules," yet is extremely popular. You can't tell those who enjoyed it that they're somehow "wrong." I didn't like the Transformers movies either, yet they made a ton of money and entertained many, many people. If I were to say I'm "right" and those who liked it are "wrong" then I've got my head firmly shoved up my ass. Same goes for Twilight, or anything else that people legitimately enjoy.

[Josephus]

And as a side note, if Twilight proves anything, it's that conventional literary analysis wisdom is rather flawed.

Not really. Twilight is somewhat popular in gender studies as a continuation of the proud bodice-ripper tradition.

[kaijyuu]

Well I mean the conventional wisdom concerning "quality." It can still be totally ripped to shreds by looking at all it's unfortunate implications concerning gender roles, stalking, abusive relationships, etc.

[Josephus]

Well I mean the conventional wisdom concerning "quality."

It doesn't change it, though. It's been well-established for years that dreck like Twilight or The Sorrows of Young Werther will sell far more than a book of 'quality'. Lowest common denominator and all that.

[Leafsnail]

There's no problem that is "nearly ubiquitous" to fanfiction except inexperience. Everyone starts somewhere (most often in the "terrible" category), and fanfiction is an excellent place to find feedback.

Really?  You can honestly read a random sample of fanfiction and not find the same problems present in most of them?  You're right about it being caused by amateur writers though.  Not sure why that goes against my point.

And as a side note, if Twilight proves anything, it's that conventional literary analysis wisdom is rather flawed. It breaks tons of "rules," yet is extremely popular. You can't tell those who enjoyed it that they're somehow "wrong." I didn't like the Transformers movies either, yet they made a ton of money and entertained many, many people. If I were to say I'm "right" and those who liked it are "wrong" then I've got my head firmly shoved up my ass. Same goes for Twilight, or anything else that people legitimately enjoy.

I don't think it shows conventional literary analysis or "conventional wisdom concerning quality" to be flawed in any way since neither of them predict that people won't buy terrible books.  It only shows them to be flawed if you regard popularity or money earnt as the sole measure of quality of a work (which contradicts what you're saying about fanfiction).

[penguinofhonor]

Oh, I'll be the first to defend Twilight. Literature's weird as fuck once you actually look at it. For instance, any very popular work is incredibly useful as a way to look at its contemporary culture. That's pretty much always true, independent of quality.

Also once you start dismissing things as pop culture, you usually just end up with a small circle of educated white dudes remaining as "true literature". The "lowest common denominator" apparently consists mostly of minorities.

[Josephus]

Also once you start dismissing things as pop culture, you usually just end up with a small circle of educated old white dudes remaining as "true literature".

Canon determination is one of the most calcifying processes strangling literature, yes. Dem old white dudes.

[kaijyuu]

@josephus
Ah okay. That's where the disagreement lies; I don't think there's such a thing as "high" and "low" storytelling, so there is no "lowest common denominator" to me. These people just lack sophistication in their tastes, which isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I don't think it shows conventional literary analysis or "conventional wisdom concerning quality" to be flawed in any way since neither of them predict that people won't buy terrible books.  It only shows them to be flawed if you regard popularity or money earnt as the sole measure of quality of a work (which contradicts what you're saying about fanfiction).

Terrible in your opinion. Would you really tell people who enjoyed Twilight that they really didn't enjoy it?

My measure of "quality" is 100% personal. What I think is genius can be trite to someone else, and that's perfectly fine. It's not that it's popular that gives it "quality," but rather that the individuals who did enjoy it can claim that it has "quality" and they would be perfectly justified in such a claim.