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[Mysteriousbluepuppet]

Has anyone else taken to thievery?

Yes, some of the people around me.

@Mysteriousbluepuppet: That's not Geno, is it?

So you should pic it up too, and conter-espionnage. Or make some thief killing runes. Runes are dwarfy.

[BuriBuriZaemon]

Who's Geno?

[Akura]

Who's Geno?

Awesome guy from this awesome game.

[BuriBuriZaemon]

Cheddarius, naivud, and I recently had an interesting discussion about the following topics:

• What do we need a megacity for?
• Will a megacity help in term of army and resources allocation?
• Will specialisation work within a megacity?

In conclusion, we agree on the following:

• Generalisation is still more efficient with regards to breakeven point (for basic resources) and production rate (for adv. resources) than specialisation.
• A megacity, while more immune to sieging, has limited scope of protection alliance-wide.
  
• A possible solution is having multiple 'mini' megacity (i.e. 2x2, instead of 6x6), but this should be a long term goal.

So we have three streams of ideas:

• Have a mega megacity (6x6 size) somewhere in the middle of Y axis (-6, -140). Chutpek already sent a settler there.
• Have no megacity at all. But space out our cities evenly along Armok's curvy smile
• Have multiple mini megacities (2x2 size) along Armok's curvy smile.

We'd like all opinions to be heard, but at the same time, organised so it's easier to compare one idea to another. My eyes are strained looking at the chat box, but in the mean time, feel free to read the chat log below. There will be more posts in StA forum about these topics so everyone can read them and give feedback. This is a crossroad, the point at which we will have to decide the strategic direction of our alliance. So get involved, fellow Slaves! 

Spoiler: Our chat log (click to show/hide)

[02:48] <Aelfric>Ah, blacksmith, interesting example.
[02:48] <Cheddarius>Level 15 blacksmith is about 40,000 wood total, and gives you maybe 3 swords an hour
[02:48] <Aelfric>Blacksmith is the one structure that produces two military items.
[02:49] <Cheddarius>Two level 13 blacksmiths is about 20,000 wood each, and gives you 5 swords an hour
[02:49] <Cheddarius>Again, a very impressive improvement through generalization
[02:49] <Cheddarius>Of course, it wouldn't actually matter as both would be level 15 - so specialization is not even possible
[02:50] <naivuud>good point
[02:50] <Aelfric>What about this: Settlement with less iron produces spears (mainly using woods).
[02:50] <naivuud>or bows
[02:50] <Cheddarius>If you really want to maximize production speed, that means all cities will have level 15 blacksmiths, level 15 spearmakers, etc.
[02:50] <Aelfric>While Settlement with more iron produces swords (mainly using iron).
[02:50] <Cheddarius>That's generalization
[02:51] <Cheddarius>But that's inefficient
[02:51] <Cheddarius>Like I said
[02:51] <Cheddarius>If you have just one settlement producing swords, even at maximum level, that's 3 an hour
[02:51] <Cheddarius>Two settlements is 5 an hour
[02:51] <Aelfric>Okay, I got it.
[02:51] <Aelfric>This will change with Soverign, though.
[02:52] <Cheddarius>If you want maximum speed, both will be producing swords and spears
[02:52] <Aelfric>But at the moment, still the conclusion is specialisation > generalisation.
[02:52] <Cheddarius>Why?
[02:52] <Aelfric>Woops, wrong arrow!
[02:52] <Cheddarius>Why would you have one settlement doing nothing?
[02:52] <Aelfric>I meant "<", lol. :p
[02:52] <Cheddarius>Even with sovereign
[02:52] <Cheddarius>Let's go to the extreme
[02:52] <Cheddarius>Let's say
[02:52] <Cheddarius>Settlement 1 has triple spear production speed
[02:53] <Cheddarius>Settlement 2 has triple sword production speed
[02:53] <Aelfric>Not doing nothing, but producing at lower rate.
[02:53] <Cheddarius>If you have Settlement 1 producing spears, and settlement 2 producing swords, you get (let's say) 9 swords an hour and 9 spears an hour
[02:53] <Cheddarius>But if you have them both producing swords and both producing spears, that's 12 swords an hour and 12 spears an hour
[02:53] <Aelfric>All production buildings will be in production, but given the constraint of resources quantity, they will produce items they specialise at.
[02:54] <Cheddarius>What do you mean?
[02:54] <Cheddarius>Blacksmiths can't produce swords and spears; they only produce iron-heavy items
[02:54] <Aelfric>So if Settlement 1 can only produce, say 10 spears or 10 swords, it will produce 10 spears.
[02:55] <Cheddarius>Why not produce 5 spears and 5 swords?
[02:55] <Cheddarius>Halve the time?
[02:55] <Cheddarius>Or...
[02:55] <Cheddarius>8 spears and 2 swords
[02:55] <Cheddarius>6.6 spears and 3.3 swords, ideally
[02:55] <Aelfric>Because Settlement 1 can produce spears, while Settlement 2 produce swords, so you'll have 10 of each at the end of the run.
[02:56] <Aelfric>We're talking about triple right?
[02:56] <Cheddarius>Okay, let's say it takes an hour to make a spear or sword, yeah?
[02:56] <Aelfric>So Settlement 1 can produce 3 spears an hour but only 1 sword?
[02:56] <Cheddarius>Got my numbers off
[02:56] <Cheddarius>Sorry
[02:56] <Aelfric>And we have limited amount of resources that we can use?
[02:56] <Cheddarius>Speartown has triple spear production rate
[02:56] <Cheddarius>Yeah
[02:56] <Cheddarius>Swordtown has triple sword production rate
[02:57] <Cheddarius>You could have Speartown produce 10 spears, and Swordtown produce 10 swords
[02:57] <Cheddarius>It would take 3 hours and 20 minutes total
[02:57] <Cheddarius>100 spears, and 100 swords, let's say
[02:57] <Cheddarius>33 hours total
[02:57] <Cheddarius>Or
[02:58] <Cheddarius>Have Speartown produce 75 spears, and 25 swords; have Swordtown produce 75 swords, and 25 spears
[02:58] <Cheddarius>25 hours total
[02:58] <Aelfric>Oh, good point.
[02:58] <Cheddarius>You've shaven almost 25% off production time
[02:58] <naivuud>but would you need to alternate which produces which?
[02:58] <Cheddarius>Eh? Why?
[02:59] <Aelfric>Well, in practice, all settlements produce all, just at different speed.
[02:59] <Cheddarius>Okay.
[02:59] <Cheddarius>So... what does this have to do with megacities, again?
[02:59] <Aelfric>But you did prove that specialisation does not make a lot of difference.
[02:59] <naivuud>yeah
[02:59] <Aelfric>Well you shot down the idea of specialisation, that leaves only protection as a purpose. :p
[03:00] <Cheddarius>Ah
[03:00] <Cheddarius>In that case I say
[03:00] <Cheddarius>You could protect two people mediocrely
[03:00] <Cheddarius>Or protect one person with one, two minutes of travel time, protect them really well
[03:01] <Cheddarius>Say, for example, a new settlement could be right next to your first city, or halfway between me and you
[03:01] <Aelfric>Quality over quantity.
[03:01] <Cheddarius>That's a bit ironic, since you were just talking about how you wanted quantity, but I digress.
[03:02] <naivuud>Can your home city be taken over or destroyed" AKA You lose!?
[03:02] <Cheddarius>Halfway, that's an hour each way
[03:02] <Aelfric>It was my comment on what you said.
[03:02] <Cheddarius>No, it can never be destroyed
[03:02] <Aelfric>Yes, it can.
[03:02] <Cheddarius>Ah, I see
[03:02] <Cheddarius>Wait, what?
[03:02] <Cheddarius>I thought I read it could not be destroyed
[03:02] <naivuud>It can probably have the buildings demolished
[03:02] <Aelfric>GM Stormcow said it could. I remember reading what you were reading, but that's from the previous manual I guess.
[03:02] <naivuud>but then you have your second city in the megacity to fall back on as a safety net
[03:03] <Aelfric>When it gets destroyed, your capital will be reassigned to the next largest city you own.
[03:03] <naivuud>Ah
[03:03] <Aelfric>If you own none, you get a new city in the outer edge of the world but you keep all the techs you have researcched
[03:03] <naivuud>neat
[03:03] <Cheddarius>http://forum.illyriad.co.uk/4-armies-in-illyriad_topic50.html
[03:04] <Cheddarius>Search for this sentence
[03:04] <Cheddarius>" Note that Capital cities are currently exempt from capture or razing"
[03:04] <Aelfric>I remember that, but GM Stormcow posted a conflicting information about it. And the manual was posted earlier.
[03:05] <Cheddarius>Ah, okay then.
[03:05] <Aelfric>They have made changes since the manual was posted.
[03:05] <Cheddarius>Anyways.
[03:05] <Cheddarius>An hour is not that long.
[03:05] <Aelfric>Lol.
[03:06] <Cheddarius>If you send someone support in one hour, it's basically as good as five minutes. Except for day-long trips and such, sending reinforcements is not generally a problem
[03:06] <Cheddarius>The problem is being online
[03:06] <Aelfric>Oh you mean travel time. I thought our discussion.
[03:06] <Aelfric>Hang on, so you're on quantity or quality side then?
[03:06] <Cheddarius>Quantity? Or, quality, I guess, depending on what you're talking about
[03:06] <naivuud>That's sort of true, but if you log in and you are short resources for a building you'd have to wait an hour for them to arrive rather then 5 minutes, forcing you to either wait it out or check back if you are determined to build that building
[03:07] <Cheddarius>I'm for spreading them out and having no megacities at all
[03:07] <Cheddarius>Being three minutes away won't help you if there are enemies approaching and the guy next to you is at work
[03:07] <Aelfric>That's my point.
[03:07] <naivuud>yeah, but thats just as true if they are an hour away
[03:07] <Aelfric>No reaction if there is no request for help.
[03:07] <Cheddarius>But, on the other hand, if there are two, three, even four people an hour away
[03:08] <Cheddarius>Almost definitely, one of them will be online
[03:08] <naivuud>that would apply to the mega city too though
[03:08] <Cheddarius>Ah, you mean if every single city is a megacity?
[03:08] <Aelfric>But you can only protect less number of settlements.
[03:09] <Aelfric>If you concentrate all the presence in a set location.
[03:09] <Cheddarius>Let me draw something... I have to figure something out
[03:09] <Cheddarius>I'm not talking about concentrating them - just the opposite
[03:09] <Aelfric>This is hard to explain by typing, yes? :p
[03:09] <Cheddarius>Imagine that I can place a settlement
[03:09] <Cheddarius>Imagine that I can place a settlement
[03:09] <Aelfric>I know, and that's what I have in mind, Cheddar.
[03:09] <Cheddarius>If I go by your idea, and place one right next to you
[03:09] <Aelfric>Multiple mini megacities!
[03:09] <Cheddarius>I want no megacities at all
[03:10] <Cheddarius>That means that it's 5 minutes away from you, but 2 hours away from me
[03:10] <Aelfric>Oh, I got it now!
[03:10] <naivuud>Was it drawing a line of settlements across the map? I had that idea a long time ago
[03:10] <Cheddarius>I would rather it be 1 hour away from the both of us
[03:10] <naivuud>that way there are always two people yo ucan call on for aid within an hour or so
[03:10] <Cheddarius>Yeah
[03:11] <Aelfric>So we have three streams of ideas: no megacity, multiple mini megacities, and one mega megacity. Should we post these in the forum?
[03:11] <naivuud>I support that idea as well, I figure as long as we organize something we're a step ahead of most of these jokers
[03:11] <Aelfric>I mean your explaination makes sense to me.
[03:11] <Aelfric>And this will dictate our direction in the future.
[03:11] <Aelfric>THe crossroad...
[03:11] <naivuud>FORUM POLLL
[03:11] <Cheddarius>Because it's pretty reasonable to need reinforcements within 2 hours, but less reasonable to say that you need support within an hour
[03:11] <Cheddarius>We need to calculate these...
[03:12] <Cheddarius>Ideally, though, Aelfric's idea is great
[03:12] <Aelfric>My idea is something in between yours and megacity.
[03:12] <naivuud>Yeah, a series of megacities connecting our frontiers would probably be the best bet
[03:12] <Cheddarius>If we end up having so many cities that we can afford to make every city a megacity, then support is basically good even within a megacity..
[03:12] <Cheddarius>I think.
[03:12] <Aelfric>I think so too, but in the short run, your idea is more viable.
[03:13] <Aelfric>So, posting time? :p
[03:13] <Cheddarius>Yeah
[03:13] <Cheddarius>Can you do it? I'm still trying some numbers
[03:13] <naivuud>you should copy and paste this whole conversation under a spoiler there
[03:14] <Aelfric>The earlier part got cut off already!

Spoiler:  Moar chat log, with LordBucket, taking part (click to show/hide)

[03:15] <Cheddarius>Okay, so let's say that we have an infinite line of settlements
[03:15] <Cheddarius>Each 2 hours away from the other
[03:15] <Cheddarius>Now, eventually, each person is going to have, let's say, 4 cities total
[03:16] <Cheddarius>If we make megacities like this
[03:16] <Cheddarius>Each person will have 3 people right there, 3 people two hours away, 3 people four hours away, etc.
[03:16] <Cheddarius>Er, actually, six people two hours away, and six four hours away, because there are two side
[03:16] <Cheddarius>*sides
[03:16] <Cheddarius>If we space them evenly
[03:17] <Cheddarius>We'll have two people 30 minutes away, two an hour away, two an hour and 30 minutes away, two two hours away...
[03:17] <Cheddarius>Actually it seems to me that both plans are, on average, about the same
[03:18] <LordBucket>Just finsihed scrollback. Cheddarius, are you accounting for the value of siege immunity of enclosed cities? During the several hours delay for reinforcements, each siege vehicle destroy one building per hour.
[03:19] <Trinsic>I think it might be a good idea to cross-pollinate as well...that is, people in the sw send some settlers to the se and some in the se send them to the sw. That way you are more likely to have a settlement near someone currently online
[03:22] <Cheddarius>I decided that siege immunity was essentially useless
[03:22] <LordBucket>Why?
[03:22] <Cheddarius>You need truly immense megacities to get any significant immunity
[03:22] <Cheddarius>Wait, no you don't.
[03:22] <LordBucket>6x6 is one city from each player in guild., and would provide immunity to 25 cities.
[03:23] <Cheddarius>Okay, so the one giant megacity plan gives good immunity
[03:23] <Cheddarius>But
[03:23] <Cheddarius>It's going to be somewhere
[03:23] <Cheddarius>Somewhere small
[03:23] <Cheddarius>There's going to be very large quantities of people very far away
[03:23] <Cheddarius>Assuming everyone drops a city in, for example, Dervin's area
[03:24] <Cheddarius>People like Rakonas and Apple Master are going to get a drastic decrease in support
[03:24] <naivuud>Earlier (it's probably paged off by now) someone noted that armies can pass through settlements
[03:24] <LordBucket>I'm more concerned about huge guilds able to send dozens of armies all at once.
[03:24] <Cheddarius>I prefer economic and light-military support to heavy support
[03:24] <LordBucket>Pass through, but not siege.
[03:25] <naivuud>ah
[03:25] <Cheddarius>I don't think it's going to be that desirable to lose economic and light-mil in return for protection from a frankly unlikely ungodly attack
[03:26] <LordBucket>Consider our guild. Imagine each of us with two armies each with 10 sige vehicle each. We could coordinate every one of us to send out armies to two cities each to arrive at the same time.
[03:26] <Cheddarius>You see, Bucket, the immunity only applies if they actually have that kind of firepower
[03:26] <LordBucket>By the time the target realizes what's goign on, a large percentage of the buildings in their entire guild will be destroyed.
[03:26] <Cheddarius>If they have exactly 36 cities with siege weapons anyway, immunity does not do anything
[03:26] <LordBucket>Megacities prevent that from happening.
[03:26] <Trinsic>We could do a bit of both...build some cities to link the smile of Armok a bit tighter, and send some to start the mega-city at chutpek's new location?
[03:26] <Aelfric>Ah my eyes @_@
[03:27] <Cheddarius>Your plan has the same weakness
[03:27] <Cheddarius>If we send one city to a megacity
[03:27] <Cheddarius>They can easily obliterate...
[03:27] <chutpek>somebody, please send settlers to me
[03:27] <chutpek>I feel so alone and kinda dumb!
[03:27] <Cheddarius>61 cities

[Cheddarius]

It's in the Illyriad forum too, if you guys want to talk about it there.

[LordBucket]

What do we need a megacity for?

I've also posted a lengthy dissertation to the in-game forums.

But to respond to a few issues here:

A possible solution is having multiple 'mini' megacity (i.e. 2x2, instead of 6x6)

This serves no purpose.

The benefit of megacities increases the more we focus on it. Six cities adjacent to each other offer no siege immunity to any of them. It takes at least 9 cities to protect a single one of them. It takes at least 12 to protect 2. It's not really worthwhile to protect only one or two cities at a time. A megacity needs to be big.

A megacity, while more immune to sieging, has limited
scope of protection alliance-wide.

Limited, yes. As opposed to a distributed model, which offers no protection at all. It doesn't matter if somebody is two hours away if your city is already destroyed by the time you log on. Any large guild who lays siege to an isolated city will easily be able to destroy it completely. A megacity provides siege immunity to all cities on the interior, and provides a real time delay before any dedicated attacker can get to those cities. That time is time we can use to respond.

Additionally, if your idea is that by having cities "close" to each other to cross-protect each other, well...you can't get much closer than a megacity, in which the cities are all in adjacent tiles. You like having a two hour response time? Ok, how does two minutes sound?

6x6 size

That was an arbitrary example for discussion, not an "ideal" size. There is no ideal size for a megacity. Bigger is better.

If they have exactly 36 cities with siege weapons
anyway, immunity does not do anything

1) You say that like you think it's a lot. It's not. Remember that individual cities can have multiple armies, and individual players can have multiple cities. Assuming four armies per city, it only takes five players with two cities each to field 36 siege-capable armies.

2) It's untrue. Let's say they have 36 armies with siege weapons and we have 36 cities. If those 36 cities are distributed, they can all be attacked simultaneously. If our 36 cities are in a 6x6 grid, only 20 of those cities may be sieged. The other 16 are immune. Effectively, 16 of their siege armies have to sit around not doing anything until they've managed to completely destroy cities in the exterior layer.

Earlier (it's probably paged off by now) someone noted that armies can pass through settlements

Yes. I was the one who noted it. Here is the thread on the Illyriad forums. Armies can pass through settlements, but siege camps may only be placed in unsettled tiles. A city enclosed in cities is immune to siege.

6x6 is one city from each player in guild., and would provide immunity to 25 cities.

Note that this was incorrect. A 6x6 megacity provides immunity to 16 cities. A 7x7 megacity protects 25, 8x8 protects 36, 9x9 protects 49, etc. The bigger the megacity, the greater the ratio of the cities in it are immune to siege.

You see, Bucket, the immunity only applies if they actually have that kind of firepower

My account is only about two weeks old. I have siege blocks built, and research points stocked up. All I need is the level 15 barracks and I'm good to go. There are plenty of people with accounts a whole lot older than mine. Anybody who wants siege engines can have them.

Have a mega megacity

Yep. That's the way to go.

[subject name here]

okay i'll give this game a try.

i'm Lord Humongous and chose to start in the south east

[BuriBuriZaemon]

This may or may not be relevant but to the ongoing discussion about megacity, but...

My account is only about two weeks old. I have siege blocks built, and research points stocked up. All I need is the level 15 barracks and I'm good to go. There are plenty of people with accounts a whole lot older than mine. Anybody who wants siege engines can have them.

A correction on this: At barrack level 15, you can research the techs required to build siege engines, but not the tech to use them to do the actual siege itself. For that, you need barrack level 20 and Siege Encampment tech.

Now, 5 levels may not seem to be a lot, but the resource requirements increase exponentially per level of barrack. In order to upgrade my barrack from level 13 to 14, I had to upgrade my resources production building and storage capacity. Now, to get to level 15, I need 45,000 iron and 38,000 stones. Even with level 15 storehouse, I don't have enough capacity to store that amount of iron and stones, so I have to upgrade my storehouse and warehouse as well. Even if I have the capacity, my resource buildings do not produce fast enough for me to be able to constantly upgrade barrack. Mind you, I'm producing +500 to +700 for each resource at tax rate of 20%.

You can imagine how long it will take to get to level 20. 

[BuriBuriZaemon]

okay i'll give this game a try.

i'm Lord Humongous and chose to start in the south east

Welcome aboard. Another orc is always good! Sent you an invite. I think you need Consulate level 1 and Diplomacy researched to join. 

[subject name here]

i'll accept as soon as i get those researched

[shome]

Ok, started up in the SW.
At -360/-17 I have struck the earth and founded Ast Nanir.
Could I get an invite please, ingame name's Adell.

[BuriBuriZaemon]

Ok, started up in the SW.
At -360/-17 I have struck the earth and founded Ast Nanir.
Could I get an invite please, ingame name's Adell.

Hurrah for more meat! And welcome to Armok's domain.

Anyway, join us up in Alliance Chat if you like!

[Akura]

The alliance is getting a bit full, should I drop some of the inactives like quinnr, Nanoth, and pretty much everyone list as last logged in more than 5 days ago?

[BuriBuriZaemon]

I think we should keep them to intimidate other alliances by number. :p

But at the same time, remove whatever number of inactive members necessary to have three open slots for new members so Alex and I can send them invite.

Good idea?

[Cheddarius]

Never mind