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[Sirian]

Cerapa, we're basically saying the same thing in different words.

However, if you look at the items, there are only 2 of them with magic penetration : the sorcerer shoes will remove magic resist by a flat amout (20) and the void staff will remove 40% of it (but it's a unique passive). So unless you stack sorcerer shoes, you can't really stack magic penetration, unlike AP. (But of course you should have magic pen marks)

Also, in your example, if you equip the void staff, Champ A will have 1120 effective health (a reduction of 80) and Champ B will have 960 effective health (a reduction of 240). Thats because Champ B needs a lot more magic resist to have the same effective health as Champ A, and therefore the void staff will be much more effective against him.

[cerapa]

Haunting guise has 20 flat pen. Also, I was speaking purely of flat pen, also, its stackability doesnt matter, and would actually be a waste if the enemy doesnt have enough resist. The two are completely different creatures. Flat pen becomes more efficient from health stacking, while % pen gets better from resist stacking. Also, putting together flat and % reduces their effectiveness because flat is counted first.

Resist stacking is a lot harder to go against, only tools are void, its physical equivalent(i think there was one) and the extremely rare true damage. While health stacking is easily countered by flat pen and madreds and those on-hit reduction items.

I find it interesting that things are stacked so highly against health stacking. It is also amazing that I somehow created a scenario where total enemy health is reduced by the same amount regardless of what item you get (320 in both cases).

EDIT: I forgot to add something, AP is actually more useful for sustained damage while Pen is better for bursting someone down, since pen only reduces health once, while AP reduces on every ability use.

[Bordellimies]

I finished a game where we were down by 1 tower, and we almost got their mid so it would've been even then.
MF decided to throw a random surrendervote because she is 0/4/1.
4 times a yes.
Because we were down by 1 tower.



It is sad day...


EDIT: So I played a second game, where we did well early/mid game but later on the enemy just got too powerful.
Their Karthus had a cool amount of AP.

In short, if we ignore magic resist (which his possible MPen from masteries & runes and the magicresist reduction from Wall of Pain would do quite well) Karthus' ulti dealt 1644 dmg, Defile 500 dmg per second, and Lay Waste 667 dmg, or 1334 if it hit only 1 target.

[Mindmaker]

I finished a game where we were down by 1 tower, and we almost got their mid so it would've been even then.
MF decided to throw a random surrendervote because she is 0/4/1.
4 times a yes.
Because we were down by 1 tower.



It is sad day...

Better than all those hopeless games, which drag on for 40 minutes, because some idiots keep voting no.

[Volatar]

Been playing Annie a bit, and I got an idea: Jungle Annie. I must make this happen.

[cerapa]

Been playing Annie a bit, and I got an idea: Jungle Annie. I must make this happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWQ79yPi-sY

I do believe this guy has jungling videos of everyone.

[Micro102]

Magic pen isn't more effective against higher health, but is less effective against higher MR (which is sort of the same I guess since you would trade health for MR items).

The problem is that because tanks stack MR and armor, every anti tank item is useless. Bloodrazor, deathfire, and especially flat pen items, are more effective against squishies then they are tanks. Because of the higher magic resistance, tanks take less damage then a squishy would if they were hit by bloodrazors even though they have such higher health.

[cerapa]

Magic pen isn't more effective against higher health, but is less effective against higher MR (which is sort of the same I guess since you would trade health for MR items).

I showed you calculations that proved flat Mpen is more effective against higher health and entirely unaffected by a persons MR unless its lower than Mpen. Do I really need to repeat myself?

EDIT: Hell, it wasnt even a calculation, it was simply logical progression from a known fact.

[Micro102]

Magic pen isn't more effective against higher health, but is less effective against higher MR (which is sort of the same I guess since you would trade health for MR items).

I showed you calculations that proved flat Mpen is more effective against higher health and entirely unaffected by a persons MR unless its lower than Mpen. Do I really need to repeat myself?

EDIT: Hell, it wasnt even a calculation, it was simply logical progression from a known fact.

No, you showed calculations of a champion with high health and low MR, and one with low health and high MR. If it truly was effected by health alone then do the calculations again with both MR the same. You will find that the results aren't very satisfying.

And like I said if you buy health you are buying less MR, which means yes, in a way it is more effective against high health champions.

[umiman]

Jungle Annie would be pretty scary. Roaming 2 second stun with ungodly burst.

[Volatar]

Resists don't work the way you guys seem to think they work. There is a soft cap on them.

I quote:

Actually it's based off the way that MR and Armor are calculated.

The formula is:

% resist = 100*(AR/(100+AR)).

An armor rating of 16 then gives you a DR of about 14%, while an armor rating of 160 gives you a DR of about 61%.  200 is about 67%.

I could show you a graph but yeah :smallsmile:  Basically anything above 200 is kind of a waste and you're better off with HP.  I usually shoot for about 160-170 MR/AR and 4k hp with Shen just to keep my damage output high (Atma's and his passive).

ALso with regards to HP, Frozen Mallet is nice because it's a permanent red buff :smallwink:

[Dakk]

Actualy if you want some extra damage with shen on the endgame after your core items are built you can just build attack speed on him. This combined with his passive makes extremely good at backdooring, if the enemy team jumps him he can just teleport away.

EDIT: Answered to quote, oh god I really am tired.

But yea overall 200 of each resistant is enough on any tank, above that only if the enemy team is full of mages or phisical carries, and then you can just focus on one anyway.

[Mindmaker]

41ms and still 10 seconds to recognize any command.
Seriously.

This is bullshit.
Why would they let the company manage the servers, which already fucked up DAoC?

[Sirian]

Resists don't work the way you guys seem to think they work. There is a soft cap on them.

I quote:

Actually it's based off the way that MR and Armor are calculated.

The formula is:

% resist = 100*(AR/(100+AR)).

An armor rating of 16 then gives you a DR of about 14%, while an armor rating of 160 gives you a DR of about 61%.  200 is about 67%.

I could show you a graph but yeah :smallsmile:  Basically anything above 200 is kind of a waste and you're better off with HP.  I usually shoot for about 160-170 MR/AR and 4k hp with Shen just to keep my damage output high (Atma's and his passive).

ALso with regards to HP, Frozen Mallet is nice because it's a permanent red buff :smallwink:

Armor and magic resist don't have a softcap, a softcap is an arbitrary reduction when the amount goes over a certain value, like for movement speed.

And it does work like we say, because we used the very calculation you're showing us.

Let me explain : Take an imaginary situation, where you have no natural armor and you're stacking thornmails (not for the -unique- passive, but because it is a round number of armor : 100)

With one armor you have 100*(100/200) = 50% of damage resist. Thats like having twice the HP (in regards to physical damage anyway). You're halving the amount of damage, so the damage must be twice as high to kill you, so thats the same as twice HP, agreed ? Thats also like adding 100% HP, since you now have virtually 200%
Now with 2 armors, you have 100*(200/300) = 66.6% of damage resist. You now need 3 times the damage to die, since you take only a third of the damage. So you have virtually 300% HP, which means you added 200% to you base 100% HP.

Let's skip things a bit or it would be boring, and imagine you have 6 armors. Thats 100*(600/700) = 85.7% damage resist. You need 7 times the damage to die (you take only 1/7th of the damage). Thats like adding 600% HP.

As you can see, X points of armor/magic resist is the same, in regards to the source of damage, as having X% more HP. It feels like a softcap though, because at first you only need 100 armor to double your virtual HP, then you need to add twice as much (adding 200 for a total of 300) to double again. And you would need to add 400 for a total of 700 to double again.

Also, only stacking armor/magic resistance is countered by a last whisper/void staff so it is not really a viable option. (In the situation where you have 600 armor, Last Whisper reduces that to 360 armor, effectively dropping your virtual HP from 700% to 460%.)

[Jopax]

Just won a game of TT, it was a curbstomp really, mostly done by our insane AD Sion who quite literally soloed their team of Xin, Ryze  and Ashe.I played Malph so naturally i didn't die a single time