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[Gorobay]

The wiki is a good place for keeping raws. At the top of each subpage (like /Lizards or /Insects) there could be a CREATURE_VARIATION to be applied to everything on that page. We could also use wiki templates to standardize the layout and internal syntax of the pages, to make it easier for your proposed raws compiler script to work.

About sea creatures: if there were too many, wouldn't they eat each other and keep the population down?

[Zantan]

I just threw together a table for the lemurs.  How does it look?  http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/User_talk:Lancensis/Mammals#Strepsirrhini_.28lemurs_and_lorises.29

[Rainseeker]

About sea creatures: if there were too many, wouldn't they eat each other and keep the population down?

They don't eat each other yet.  Unfortunately, sea and lake creatures may be a problem.  It may behoove us to turn off breeding for them at the moment, or greatly slow it down.  What is the consensus on this?

[Pizdzius]

I'm not into programming the raws, but for me it looks clear and it's pretty good. Does making it take long?

[Zantan]

I'm not into programming the raws

That doesn't really matter.  Everything means pretty much what it sounds, and the work is more in research than understanding the raws.  Biomes are chosen from the list on the wiki, prefstrings go into personality profiles as reasons for liking a creature, and time units are years.

Does making it take long?

Not very, but I wouldn't want to do more than 10 or 20 in a sitting with that level of detail.  Wikipedia and EOL typically had all the info I needed, and the missing info can be guessed pretty easily.  Making HTML tables can be time consuming, but I made it in excel and emailed it to myself.  That way I could view it in HTML on gmail and copy the source code to the wiki.

[Pizdzius]

Great! It's also great that Toady helped to make it faster. I don't think I can help you with that, the more people, the more chaos, but if I have to make graphics with some sort of organized chart, give a sign. I know I can start making genuine creatures, but I still don't know about the sizes of templates.

[Zantan]

I don't think I can help you with that, the more people, the more chaos.

No, help would definitely be easy to provide and valuable.  Just like with making the original lists, anyone can claim a list that seems to be complete, do the research, and throw in a table.  Most lists are less than 20 entries, making each fairly manageable individually.  However there are several hundred creatures already listed, and I would need other people to help me do this.

[Pizdzius]

I never even edited a wiki entry, I prefer not to touch this to not ruin your work

[Zantan]

Editing a wiki is easy too, especially if you're cutting and pasting.  That way you don't have to even think about HTML code.  I understand you're offering your own specialty to this project, I just wanted to emphasize that this is really easy, if time consuming.  Support from anyone who is interested is always appreciated, and if we need to put up instructions and a basic guide to raws, that should not be a problem.

[Rainseeker]

We should probably put up a link to the discussion I had about this with Tarn.  You can hear it here: 

http://www.bay12games.com/media/Creature%20Tags.mp3

Would you mind putting this up on the first post, Foot?

[Zantan]

That talk refers to the raws of the following dwarf.  It may be useful to add this as well:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[CREATURE:DWARF]
    [DESCRIPTION:A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.]
    [NAME:dwarf:dwarves:dwarven]
    [CASTE_NAME:dwarf:dwarves:dwarven]
    [CREATURE_TILE:1][COLOR:3:0:0]

    Many of the following tags are actually caste-level tags (in this
case, male and female), but because there are no differences between
the castes for these tags in a dwarf, you can add them earlier.  Any
caste-level tag that occurs before castes are explicitly declared is
saved up and placed on any caste that is declared later, unless the
caste is explicitly derived from another caste.

    [INTELLIGENT]
    [trANCES]
    [BENIGN]
    [CANOPENDOORS]
    [PREFSTRING:beards]
[BODY:HUMANOID:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:HUMANOID_JOINTS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:SKULL:5FINGERS:5TOES:MOUTH:FACIAL_FEATURES:TEETH:RIBCAGE]

    Next we use body detail plans (which have their own raw file) to
streamline the addition of some of the common materials, tissues and
their relationships with each other.

    [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_MATERIALS]
    [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_TISSUES]
    [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:VERTEBRATE_TISSUE_LAYERS:SKIN:FAT:MUSCLE:BONE:CARTILAGE]
    [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:HEAD_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]

    Eyebrows and eyelashes are manually added here.

    [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:EYEBROW:EYEBROW_TEMPLATE]
    [TISSUE_LAYER:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:EYEBROW:ABOVE:BY_CATEGORY:EYE]
    [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:EYELASH:EYELASH_TEMPLATE]
    [TISSUE_LAYER:BY_CATEGORY:EYELID:EYELASH:FRONT]

    And nails.

    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:NAIL:NAIL_TEMPLATE]
    [USE_TISSUE_TEMPLATE:NAIL:NAIL_TEMPLATE]
    [TISSUE_LAYER:BY_CATEGORY:FINGER:NAIL:FRONT]
    [TISSUE_LAYER:BY_CATEGORY:TOE:NAIL:FRONT]

    Set up some major arteries that couldn't be handled in the raw
templates.  The selection commands can be used to grab tissue layers
to adjust their properties after they have been created.

    [SELECT_TISSUE_LAYER:HEART:BY_CATEGORY:HEART]
    [PLUS_TISSUE_LAYER:SKIN:BY_CATEGORY:THROAT]
        [MAJOR_ARTERIES]

    Then back to some more body detail plans.

    [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUES]
    [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:STANDARD_HEAD_POSITIONS]
    [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:HUMANOID_HEAD_POSITIONS]
    [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:HUMANOID_RIBCAGE_POSITIONS]
    [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:HUMANOID_RELSIZES]
    [RELSIZE:BY_CATEGORY:LIVER:300] Of course!  Standard relative size
for humanoids is 200.

    Tendons and ligaments are currently very abstract, but adding these
flags will let wounds occur that damage them.  The number afterward is
the healing rate.  Lower is faster.

    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:SINEW:SINEW_TEMPLATE]
    [TENDONS:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:SINEW:200]
    [liGAMENTS:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:SINEW:200]

    This makes the creature susceptible to severed nerves when muscles
are torn in limb, grasp and stance parts.

    [HAS_NERVES]

    This controls the bleeding behavior.

    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:BLOOD:BLOOD_TEMPLATE]
    [BLOOD:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:BLOOD:LIQUID]

    These classes are used by syndromes (such as poison) as well as some
restricted entity positions.  You can name them whatever you want.

    [CREATURE_CLASS:GENERAL_POISON]

    Some tags to control the overall infection behavior.

    [GETS_WOUND_INFECTIONS]
    [GETS_INFECTIONS_FROM_ROT]
    [USE_MATERIAL_TEMPLATE:PUS:PUS_TEMPLATE]
    [PUS:LOCAL_CREATURE_MAT:PUS:LIQUID]
   
    These tags establish the growth phases of the creature's life.  The
format is (BODY_SIZE|<year>|<day>|<average size>).

    [BODY_SIZE:0:0:3000]
    [BODY_SIZE:1:168:15000]
    [BODY_SIZE:12:0:60000]

    These body modifiers give individual dwarves different
characteristics.  In the case of HEIGHT, BROADNESS and LENGTH, the
modifier is also a percentage change to the BODY_SIZE of the
individual creature.  The seven numbers afterward give a distribution
of ranges.  Each interval has an equal chance of occurring.

    [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:75:95:98:100:102:105:125]
        [APP_MOD_IMPORTANCE:500]
    [BODY_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:75:95:98:100:102:105:125]
        [APP_MOD_IMPORTANCE:500]

    In order to set properties for body parts, first you select them.  In
this case, we select all body parts of category EYE, then we add a few
modifiers to them.

    [SET_BP_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:EYE]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:CLOSE_SET:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
            [APP_MOD_NOUN:eyes:PLURAL]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:DEEP_SET:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
            [APP_MOD_NOUN:eyes:PLURAL]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:ROUND_VS_NARROW:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
            [APP_MOD_NOUN:eyes:PLURAL]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:LARGE_IRIS:25:70:90:100:110:130:200]
            [APP_MOD_NOUN:eyes:PLURAL]

    [SET_BP_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:LIP]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:THICKNESS:50:70:90:100:110:130:200]
            [APP_MOD_NOUN:lips:PLURAL]

    [SET_BP_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:NOSE]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:25:70:90:100:110:130:200]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:LENGTH:25:70:90:100:110:130:200]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:UPTURNED:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:CONVEX:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
            [APP_MOD_NOUN:nose bridge:SINGULAR]

    [SET_BP_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:EAR]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:SPLAYED_OUT:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
            [APP_MOD_NOUN:ears:PLURAL]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HANGING_LOBES:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
            [APP_MOD_NOUN:ears:PLURAL]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
            [APP_MOD_IMPORTANCE:700]
            [APP_MOD_NOUN:ears:PLURAL]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
            [APP_MOD_IMPORTANCE:700]
            [APP_MOD_NOUN:ears:PLURAL]

    [SET_BP_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:TOOTH]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:GAPS:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
            [APP_MOD_NOUN:teeth:PLURAL]

    [SET_BP_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:SKULL]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HIGH_CHEEKBONES:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROAD_CHIN:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:JUTTING_CHIN:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:SQUARE_CHIN:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]

    [SET_BP_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:NECK]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:DEEP_VOICE:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:RASPY_VOICE:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]

    [SET_BP_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:BROADNESS:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
            [APP_MOD_IMPORTANCE:700]
        [BP_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HEIGHT:90:95:98:100:102:105:110]
            [APP_MOD_IMPORTANCE:700]


    These are as before.

    [MAXAGE:150:170]

    Attack definitions are formatted as follows:

    [ATTACK:PUNCH:BODYPART:BY_TYPE:GRASP]
        [ATTACK_SKILL:GRASP_STRIKE]
        [ATTACK_VERB:punch:punches]

        This means that the attack will use as much of the available tissue
as possible, rather than, say, thrusting with a spike.

        [ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
        [ATTACK_FLAG_WITH]
        [ATTACK_PRIORITY:MAIN]

    [ATTACK:KICK:BODYPART:BY_TYPE:STANCE]
        [ATTACK_SKILL:STANCE_STRIKE]
        [ATTACK_VERB:kick:kicks]
        [ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
        [ATTACK_FLAG_WITH]
        [ATTACK_PRIORITY:SECOND]

    This causes all of the nails on the finger's of a given grasp to be used.

    [ATTACK:SCRATCH:CHILD_TISSUE_LAYER_GROUP:BY_TYPE:GRASP:BY_CATEGORY:FINGER:NAIL]
        [ATTACK_SKILL:GRASP_STRIKE]
        [ATTACK_VERB:scratch:scratches]
        [ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
        [ATTACK_PENETRATION_PERC:100]
        [ATTACK_FLAG_EDGE]
        [ATTACK_PRIORITY:SECOND]

    This causes all of the teeth on a given head to be used.

    [ATTACK:BITE:CHILD_BODYPART_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:BY_CATEGORY:TOOTH]
        [ATTACK_SKILL:BITE]
        [ATTACK_VERB:bite:bites]
        [ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
        [ATTACK_PENETRATION_PERC:100]
        [ATTACK_FLAG_EDGE]
        [ATTACK_PRIORITY:SECOND]
        [ATTACK_FLAG_CANLATCH]

    Here, GENERAL_BABY_NAME is at the creature level, and BABYNAME is at
the caste level.  These names could be gender-specific but aren't
right now.

    [BABY:1]
    [GENERAL_BABY_NAME:dwarven baby:dwarven babies]
    [BABYNAME:dwarven baby:dwarven babies]
    [CHILD:12]
    [GENERAL_CHILD_NAME:dwarven child:dwarven children]
    [CHILDNAME:dwarven child:dwarven children]
    [EQUIPS]
    [CAVE_ADAPT]
    [DIURNAL]

    This is the new format for making specific unit names for a creature.
Any unit token can be used.  If you want to add a caste-specific
profession name, use CASTE_PROFESSION_NAME instead, once the caste has
been declared.

    [PROFESSION_NAME:CRAFTSMAN:craftsdwarf:craftsdwarves]
    [PROFESSION_NAME:FISHERMAN:fisherdwarf:fisherdwarves]
    [PROFESSION_NAME:HAMMERMAN:hammerdwarf:hammerdwarves]
    [PROFESSION_NAME:SPEARMAN:speardwarf:speardwarves]
    [PROFESSION_NAME:CROSSBOWMAN:marksdwarf:marksdwarves]
    [PROFESSION_NAME:AXEMAN:axedwarf:axedwarves]
    [PROFESSION_NAME:SWORDSMAN:swordsdwarf:swordsdwarves]
    [PROFESSION_NAME:MACEMAN:macedwarf:macedwarves]
    [PROFESSION_NAME:PIKEMAN:pikedwarf:pikedwarves]
    [PROFESSION_NAME:BOWMAN:bowdwarf:bowdwarves]
    [SPEECH:dwarf.txt]
    [HOMEOTHERM:10067]
    [ALCOHOL_DEPENDENT]
    [SWIMS_LEARNED][SWIM_SPEED:2500]
    [PERSONALITY:IMMODERATION:0:55:100]
    [PERSONALITY:VULNERABILITY:0:45:100]
    [PERSONALITY:STRAIGHTFORWARDNESS:0:55:100]
    [MANNERISM_FINGERS:finger:fingers]
    [MANNERISM_NOSE:nose]
    [MANNERISM_EAR:ear]
    [MANNERISM_HEAD:head]
    [MANNERISM_EYES:eyes]
    [MANNERISM_MOUTH:mouth]
    [MANNERISM_HAIR:hair]
    [MANNERISM_KNUCKLES:knuckles]
    [MANNERISM_LIPS:lips]
    [MANNERISM_CHEEK:cheek]
    [MANNERISM_NAILS:nails]
    [MANNERISM_FEET:feet]
    [MANNERISM_ARMS:arms]
    [MANNERISM_HANDS:hands]
    [MANNERISM_TONGUE:tongue]
    [MANNERISM_LEG:leg]
    [MANNERISM_LAUGH]
    [MANNERISM_SMILE]
    [MANNERISM_WALK]
    [MANNERISM_SIT]
    [MANNERISM_BREATH]
    [MANNERISM_POSTURE]
    [MANNERISM_STRETCH]
    [MANNERISM_EYELIDS]
   
    Now we'll declare the specific castes.

    [CASTE:FEMALE]
        The gender tag lets it know how breeding works.
        [FEMALE]
        [MULTIPLE_LITTER_RARE]
        To add beards, put square brackets around the following:
        BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS
    [CASTE:MALE]
        [MALE]
        [BODY_DETAIL_PLAN:FACIAL_HAIR_TISSUE_LAYERS]

    This command lets you select all of the castes again.

    [SELECT_CASTE:ALL]

        Now we'll select all of the hair tissue layers we can find so that
we can add colorations to them.  Even if the castes have different
tissue layers, it'll find the layers and establish modifiers for each
of the castes properly.

        [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:HAIR]
        [PLUS_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:CHEEK_WHISKERS]
        [PLUS_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:CHIN_WHISKERS]
        [PLUS_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:MOUSTACHE]
        [PLUS_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:SIDEBURNS]
        [PLUS_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:EYEBROW]
        [PLUS_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:EYELASH]
           
            A color modifier takes a list of color patterns (every color is
associated to a monotone color pattern of its color, so you can also
use color tokens) and frequencies.  I haven't filled out this list
yet...

            [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:BLACK:1:BROWN:1]
                [TLCM_NOUN:hair:SINGULAR]
            [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:GRAY:1]

                This gives the start and finish time in <year>|<days> for the
color change to occur
       
                [TLCM_NOUN:hair:SINGULAR]
                [TLCM_TIMING:ROOT:80:0:130:0]
            [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:WHITE:1]
                [TLCM_NOUN:hair:SINGULAR]
                [TLCM_TIMING:ROOT:130:0:150:0]

        Now we'll select the eyebrows and eyelashes and give them variable lengths.

        [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:EYEBROW]
            [TISSUE_LAYER_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:LENGTH:50:80:90:100:110:120:150]
                [APP_MOD_NOUN:eyebrows:PLURAL]
            [TISSUE_LAYER_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:DENSE:50:80:90:100:110:120:150]
                [APP_MOD_NOUN:eyebrows:PLURAL]
            [TISSUE_LAYER_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:HIGH_POSITION:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
                [APP_MOD_NOUN:eyebrows:PLURAL]

        [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:EYELASH]
            [TISSUE_LAYER_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:LENGTH:50:80:90:100:110:120:150]
                [APP_MOD_NOUN:eyelashes:PLURAL]

        All of the other hair is selected and started at length zero.  It's
fine to group them all together like this -- the creature can still
accomodate different lengths once hair cutting/styling goes in.  I
used one modifier here because the growth rates and starting length
are all the same.

        [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:HAIR]
        [PLUS_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:CHEEK_WHISKERS]
        [PLUS_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:CHIN_WHISKERS]
        [PLUS_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:MOUSTACHE]
        [PLUS_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:SIDEBURNS]
            [TISSUE_LAYER_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:LENGTH:0:0:0:0:0:0:0]
                [APP_MOD_NOUN:hair:SINGULAR]

                Here we set the growth rate.  This will change the modifier
(LENGTH) by 1 each day up to a maximum of 1000 from the start of the
dwarf's life (early beards!) for as long as the dwarf is alive.  The
format is (APP_MOD_RATE|<rate>|<scale>|<min>|<max>|<start year>|<start
day>|<end year>|<end day>) where the final two tokens can be replaced
by NO_END if the growth is to continue indefinitely.
               
                [APP_MOD_RATE:1:DAILY:0:1000:0:0:NO_END]

            [TISSUE_LAYER_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:CURLY:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
                [APP_MOD_NOUN:hair:SINGULAR]
            [TISSUE_LAYER_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:GREASY:0:70:90:100:110:130:200]
                [APP_MOD_NOUN:hair:SINGULAR]
            [TISSUE_LAYER_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:DENSE:50:80:90:100:110:120:150]
                [APP_MOD_NOUN:hair:SINGULAR]

        [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:HAIR]
            [TISSUE_STYLE_UNIT:HAIR:STANDARD_HAIR_SHAPINGS]
                [TSU_NOUN:hair:SINGULAR]

        [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:CHEEK_WHISKERS]
        [PLUS_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:CHIN_WHISKERS]
            [TISSUE_STYLE_UNIT:BEARD:STANDARD_BEARD_SHAPINGS]
                [TSU_NOUN:beard:SINGULAR]

        [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:MOUSTACHE]
            [TISSUE_STYLE_UNIT:MOUSTACHE:STANDARD_MOUSTACHE_SHAPINGS]
                [TSU_NOUN:moustache:SINGULAR]

        [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:HEAD:SIDEBURNS]
            [TISSUE_STYLE_UNIT:SIDEBURNS:STANDARD_SIDEBURNS_SHAPINGS]
                [TSU_NOUN:sideburns:PLURAL]

        Here we handle nail length.

        *** need a new style to keep these short and need to make the entity
def say to keep them short
        SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:FINGER:NAIL]
        PLUS_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:TOE:NAIL]
            TISSUE_LAYER_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:LENGTH:100:100:100:100:100:100:100]
                APP_MOD_RATE:1:DAILY:0:1000:0:0:NO_END]
                APP_MOD_NOUN:nails:PLURAL]

        Here all of the skin is selected and various colors are listed.

        [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:ALL:SKIN]
            [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:BROWN:1:BURNT_UMBER:1:CINNAMON:1:COPPER:1:DARK_BROWN:1:DARK_PEACH:1:DARK_TAN:1:ECRU:1:PALE_BROWN:1:PALE_CHESTNUT:1:PALE_PINK:1:PEACH:1:PINK:1:RAW_UMBER:1:SEPIA:1:TAN:1:TAUPE_PALE:1:TAUPE_SANDY:1]
            [TLCM_NOUN:skin:SINGULAR]

        [TISSUE_LAYER_APPEARANCE_MODIFIER:WRINKLY:0:0:0:0:0:0:0]
            [APP_MOD_RATE:1:YEARLY:0:100:60:0:NO_END]
            [APP_MOD_NOUN:skin:SINGULAR]

        Now we do the eyes, using the somewhat clunky eye color patterns.

        [SET_TL_GROUP:BY_CATEGORY:EYE:EYE]
            [TL_COLOR_MODIFIER:IRIS_EYE_AMETHYST:1:IRIS_EYE_AQUAMARINE:1:IRIS_EYE_BRASS:1:IRIS_EYE_BRONZE:1:IRIS_EYE_COBALT:1:IRIS_EYE_COPPER:1:IRIS_EYE_EMERALD:1:IRIS_EYE_GOLD:1:IRIS_EYE_HELIOTROPE:1:IRIS_EYE_JADE:1:IRIS_EYE_OCHRE:1:IRIS_EYE_RAW_UMBER:1:IRIS_EYE_RUST:1:IRIS_EYE_SILVER:1:IRIS_EYE_SLATE_GRAY:1:IRIS_EYE_TURQUOISE:1]
            [TLCM_NOUN:eyes:PLURAL]

Also, Toady mentions that the units for the size variables are cubic centimeters...how should we be translating creature info into size?  If we have the weight, should we simplify by assuming that all creatures have the same density as water and assume that each gram = 1 size unit?

[Footkerchief]

About sea creatures: if there were too many, wouldn't they eat each other and keep the population down?

They don't eat each other yet.  Unfortunately, sea and lake creatures may be a problem.  It may behoove us to turn off breeding for them at the moment, or greatly slow it down.  What is the consensus on this?

Is the concern that seaside fortresses will get population booms in the water?  All of our r-selected species will have fudged numbers anyway -- DF doesn't model their life cycle at all yet.  Greatly slowing it down is fine with me.

I just threw together a table for the lemurs.  How does it look?  http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/User_talk:Lancensis/Mammals#Strepsirrhini_.28lemurs_and_lorises.29

Ah, yeah, this is what I was talking about when I said "The main thing I want to avoid in any such approach is having our own data storage format that requires manual translation into raw entries."  The prefstring is the only column there that could be automatically converted to raws.  If we have tables like that throughout the wiki, then it'll be as if we have to update two sets of raws, not one, and it won't be clear which one is authoritative, or what changes need to be transferred.

Also, EOL seems like a really annoying site -- if people want to link that as their info source, okay, but I hope nobody starts replacing wikipedia links with EOL links just on principle.

We probably need to store the raws directly in the wiki, which means a table with four-ish columns: name, info link, raws text (in some kind of show/hide box), and completion status.  Any notes about the creature can be put into the raws text, where they'll remain as comments alongside the actual tags.  Gorobay, you mentioned MediaWiki templates -- that'll probably be necessary, do you have any experience with those?

I guess I should remind everyone that it's essentially premature to enter data for indiv. lemurs before the lemurs' template is ready.  There's a substantial risk that we'll have to just throw out premature raws because correcting them would take more work than making them from scratch.  So only work on that if you're absolutely unwilling to work on more pressing needs, like making templates or expanding the list itself (which is still very far from complete).

We should probably put up a link to the discussion I had about this with Tarn.  You can hear it here: 

http://www.bay12games.com/media/Creature%20Tags.mp3

Would you mind putting this up on the first post, Foot?

That talk refers to the raws of the following dwarf.  It may be useful to add this as well:

Alright, I'll throw those in, and the cougar link as well.  Later those links will be part of a full set of guidelines for making creature raws, like the current "How do I add a creature to the list?" thing.

Great! It's also great that Toady helped to make it faster. I don't think I can help you with that, the more people, the more chaos, but if I have to make graphics with some sort of organized chart, give a sign. I know I can start making genuine creatures, but I still don't know about the sizes of templates.

Hmm... it's not really feasible to put sprites on the wiki as individual 16x16 images.  It'd just be a pain and someone would have to reassemble them into sprite sheets later.  I guess my recommendation would be to just start making sprite sheets -- maybe one sheet per wiki page, roughly?  You can post them in this thread to keep us updated, of course.

[Gorobay]

I just threw together a table for the lemurs.  How does it look?  http://dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/User_talk:Lancensis/Mammals#Strepsirrhini_.28lemurs_and_lorises.29

I just changed the table to use wiki syntax, which is far less verbose and far easier to read.

We probably need to store the raws directly in the wiki, which means a table with four-ish columns: name, info link, raws text (in some kind of show/hide box), and completion status.  Any notes about the creature can be put into the raws text, where they'll remain as comments alongside the actual tags.  Gorobay, you mentioned MediaWiki templates -- that'll probably be necessary, do you have any experience with those?

Yes, indeed I do. I could create it right now. What should I call it? "Template:Ark"?

Alright, I'll throw those in, and the cougar link as well.  Later those links will be part of a full set of guidelines for making creature raws, like the current "How do I add a creature to the list?" thing.

There's the fluffy wambler too.

[Neonivek]

The reason why there won't be too many creatures all eating eachother (BEYOND the fact that all creatures currently live in perpetual harmony) is that it isn't how the game runs it as far as I am aware.

It doesn't, if my reading of my files is correct, spawn all available animals and puts it into one biome. It seems to instead take a few animals (around 5) and choses them to exist in the land and overall.

[Footkerchief]

We probably need to store the raws directly in the wiki, which means a table with four-ish columns: name, info link, raws text (in some kind of show/hide box), and completion status.  Any notes about the creature can be put into the raws text, where they'll remain as comments alongside the actual tags.  Gorobay, you mentioned MediaWiki templates -- that'll probably be necessary, do you have any experience with those?

Yes, indeed I do. I could create it right now. What should I call it? "Template:Ark"?

I guess shorter's better, so yeah, that works.  I was thinking we should also have an "Template Override" column, which if nonempty will result in the creature not invoking any parent templates and instead invoking the ones specified in the column.  Also, what's the feasibility of putting raws text in show/hide boxes in the table?  Is there some more elegant way?

Also, what are your thoughts on having other columns for specific tags?  Biomes and prefstrings may be feasible if people can adhere to formatting (and remember to check templates first)... body size nodes might be pushing it, coloration requires selection of tissue layers, everything else seems too complicated.