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[SirBayer]

Yeah, but I'd love to hear it from him.

I suppose after running all the BMs your instinct is to explain, but why bother defending him, Dakarian?

[CobaltKobold]

There are three posts in this series, written over the time I am reading the thread.
at-the-mod-post

What the fuck?
(snip)
I have a suspicion that something went horribly wrong in this votecount. Where did I fuck up?

Zai has votes in three places. MrPerson has them in two. Leafsnail unvoted.

Org, participate or I'll seek a replacement for you. Same for Vector and AN.

Org's participating at about the same level as anybody else in the low-posting. It's not very much, but he appears to be improving. No ham sandwiches, e'en, unlike web.

Org: Participate, not POST.

I told Bayer to post over AIM instead of here.

...uh...I'm trying not to be newbie much. But I've seen time and time again that active lurking IS a strategy, permissible, if scummy-seeming. a post pointing out how the antibandwagon is scummy for instance. I continue my cross-game defense of Org because he's improving.

[webadict]

So, uh, guys. Sorry for not posting. I'm fairly ill. I can't see clearly if my head isn't facing almost level because my eyes water, my sinuses are congested as all heck, and my head hurts. So, yeah. Not well.

So since I'm not following the whole thing perfectly (I've read all of it, and I hope I get it), I'm going to ask Webadict: Why do you feel the need to be so obscenely aggressive? And very angry. It's not very productive to make people angry, is it? Emotional people don't do anything mental quite as well.

If there was an answer to that, please tell me and I will look instead of asking.

Until I get an answer, Unvote Eduren. Since I think that's who I was voting.

I'm very productive when I'm angry.

Also, if you thought that was anger, I wasn't even trying to be angry. Anger with emotion is easy to transfer over into writing, because it is what you are made to feel. Like capital letters. They are read as though I'm yelling.

It also helps to serve a point. That being don't be an idiot.

And, it helps destroy metas against me.

Also, dakarian pretty much answered it.

Also, you say you're unable to help but you've managed to know what's happening here without responding for... how long?

Not that much better honestly, considering everything else on his head.

And please just leave off Shadow.  There's plenty of time to tear into him tomorrow when he's claimed that the restriction ends.  Restrictions that bad DO happen and assuming he's lying because it's anti-town is horrible logic.  Zai is horribly scum and, even without him, there's others to focus on.  Shadow can wait for tomorrow. 

I'm not after him because of his restriction. I'm after him because of his DRASTIC SWITCH OF DRASTICNESS! As well as his general scumminess.

Yeah, but I'd love to hear it from him.

I suppose after running all the BMs your instinct is to explain, but why bother defending him, Dakarian?

Because if I'm not here, I can't answer it.

[SHAD0Wdump]

It seemed urgent.

[dakarian]

Yeah, but I'd love to hear it from him.

I suppose after running all the BMs your instinct is to explain, but why bother defending him, Dakarian?

Because I felt that aiming at his attitude isn't helpful for determining his scumminess.  You have to get PAST his personality to see how he truly is.   


I will ask, btw, what DO you feel about Zai- his actions and my argument? 

[CobaltKobold]

This is the second post in the series. Please read the analysis the spoiler.
fuck it, webadict deserves a separate post, because e'eryone else would be lost in it. copied header: Ten pages while I slept. Yeek. time to comb for scum (writing as I read) Rashilul...I don't think I'm getting any more out of him. unvote Rashilul So now I read and write through the forest and see if I can find the ninja scum. (BTW it is the j key that is worst now) A pity that all the quotes I pull out will not let me know the huge number of posts written while I write this. Perhaps I'll check by timestamp. 34 pages when I started writing this.

Spoiler: Pandarsenic has low-res. Analysis of webadict. (click to show/hide)

...

Well, we can tell that Leafsnail has no sense of perspective. Let's see, who's next...

While I won't call it a baseless attack, I do not see you supporting it. with reasoning. at ALL.

If you want to use meta against me, you're going to have to try a whole lot harder.

...(see later)

And continuing to insult your intelligence will lead to zero progress. Perhaps you should take notice to the actual game that's playing.

This seems in exact contradiction to the attitude in your earlier posts, calling everyone morons, etc. The above accusation by Toony seems the most likely reason. Aaaand (post not quoted because of the size tags) you immediately go back to insulting peoples' intelligence and refusing to explain yourself, as e'eryone's calling you on. A post that is not significant by itself, but is pointed out by your explanation (partial quote)

And I told you: I don't do Meta.

More inconsistency! You are calling out dakarian on dropping scumtells, lying, and special pleading about them (and calling many others about not supporting their arguments)  and doing the exact same thing.
and then when you FINALLY decide to bring out the 'explanation'...(size-tag removed to aid readability, bolding added for emphasis)

Unvote Mephansteras. Webadict. No, Webadict, insulting everyone will not help you get further in life. Sit down in the corner a while and calm down, then come back when you're willing to post reasons and defend yourself instead of calling people morons. Oh, you have posted reasons? Where. You have defended yourself? Where.
SHOW ME THE REASONS.

Now you've done it.

WATCH THIS EVERYONE: I WENT BACK AND THIS TOOK ME FIVE WHOLE MINUTES TO BRING DOWN YOUR PATHETIC ARGUMENT:

You were awfully reluctant to use those minutes. You're at what, L-1 when you post this? -2?

Oh eduren is like that a lot. Which is funny because that's exactly what meta means. You seem to forget that meta is for both scum AND town tells.

My problem with you is that you're not how you normally are, and you push me off by saying that just because you're not how you are doesn't mean you're scum. Sure, that could be true, but I really doubt it. Null tell this and null tell that. You of all people know that finding scum isn't all about tells. There's a certain amount of lying that goes on as scum, and that's what you are.

YOU.

ARE.

A.

LIAR.

(snip)

You seemed busy. I'll push you later for info.

Two prongs of an argument (the third:

You give off scumtells just like everyone else, but oh no, those can be explained and these can be explained.

is the only strong one.

@Web

I don't know Eduren's meta.  Meanwhile, Toony disagrees: he says that self preservation ISN'T part of his meta.  That's why I'm on him.  I'll take your idea that he DOES act like this normally into consideration, but I want to hear more from him before I leave him alone. 



I pushed you off because you didn't explain yourself, just cried out "SCUMMY!"  I started actually talking to you once you brought up actual arguments. 

Where did you get me saying that I don't have scumtells?  I have reasons for what I do because..well.. I DO HAVE REASONS.  When you ask or accuse me about them I will give those reasons.  If they seem to fit ever so nicely into a package then there you go.  Hate me for it or love me for it, but that's what I do.

You claim I'm lying... on what?  That I'm not acting like myself?  That you don't believe my arguments? 


I suspect you.  Yes, I DO suspect you.  As such I'll push you.  I don't have a second vote so a FOS will do: since it's brought this result I'm glad I left it like that, since Eduren needs a LOT more pressure than you do.  Do I want you dead?  No, not yet.  I make THAT time very very clear and you aren't there yet.  Your emotions provide a very nice shield so it's hard to crack you, whether you are town or scum.  I want to say you cracked but if so you won't be readable till later.  For now, I'll need to be content where you are.

As it is, I can tell you didn't really analyze me very well.  How?  You didn't know who I was voting for, even though the posts just before our little argument was all about Eduren and my vote hasn't wavered from him for a while.  It's noteworthy, that's for sure. 


You want to disrupt me.  Sorry, I won't be disrupted.  Tried it, saw a town die by it.  I'll stick to what I do, thank you very much. 

Sidenote: I'm on a ROLL.  For the past few posts I've actually written his name right !

Randomvote: Vista 

V Nurez: poor logic

V Shadow: Being evasive (presure vote)

Believes Shadow's under post restriction, unvotes,  V Nurez

Explains reasoning for actions on Shadow (waiting until post restriction ends before pressuring)

Pressure on Nurez

Everything else has been either pressure on Nurez or explaining why he's pressuring Nurez

I don't get the attacks on him, except for the first vote and his reasons for it.  His actions towards Shadow seem solid.  His push on Nurez looks like a regular scumhunt.  If he's scum, he's going to need a good deal more pressure if you want something to actually go off of.  For now his nose is cleaner than most.

It's funny. You're trying to reply to me in a way that I'll assume you're town.

You're posting for my approval and not to actually provide content. That "analysis" you did was subpar for you. I mean come on. I've seen you do big pages on person's post. Not that I really care, but you basically SAID what he did and didn't explain what he did.

And that whole vote thing? Is THAT what you're really going to bring up to make me look suspicious? I mean, you're STILL trying to make me look suspicious! Why don't you just put a big list or something, instead of doing it steadily, like a real accuser.

Hoo boy.

So much to read but I think I'll start here:

Additionally, more seriously, tell me (enumerate) your favored scumbuddies and why. Limit to within game so no picking Pandarsenic.

I haven't really played mafia on B12. Mostly on IRC or with my friends or on other forums. Searching my name will bring up a Mafiascum game, which is the first time I played and which I am thoroughly embarrassed about.

So look around, use what you know and can observe, and try to answer the question, please.

Well, the three other scum, Dakarian, Sir Bayer (Who I tried to get to post), and Zai, probably wouldn't appreciate me telling you that.[/joke]

But seriously, those are the ones I'm suspicious of. Not really Zai though, he's just kind of a random place holder.

My ideal scum team...I have no idea, gotta read some other B12 mafia games first.

Why are they suspicious?

So. web calls dakarian a liar.
The bolded part: Dakarian asks web to provide the evidence that he is a liar.
Web does not. (And still hasn't, in this post where he's providing his reason for voting dakarian).

Unvote.

And the question was?

Also. I find it funny how everybody is going after their own individual people and ignoring everyone else.

You think either me or Web is scum. That's a very, very scummy thing to say, and it's even worse that you didn't explain why you think that. So please, tell us.

1) Didn't say that either you or Web was scum, I said at least one of you (meaning both of you could be) was scum. 2) Not much reason behind it, actually. Can't recall why I said that. Been rather hyper today, if you couldn't tell. No longer suspicious of you at all though, M.P.

I now think at least one of Web and Meph is scum. Leaning more heavily on Web right now.

[PPE:] Yeah, Web's definitely scum.

Let's hear a reasoning, other than you feel like it, moron. All you're saying is that I'm scummy, and you're only applying it to a logic statement with no premises. Therefore, your statement is neither sound nor valid.

Wow, let's see someone with real intelligence accuse me this time.

Some hypocrisy, then?

Hoo boy.

So much to read but I think I'll start here:

Additionally, more seriously, tell me (enumerate) your favored scumbuddies and why. Limit to within game so no picking Pandarsenic.

I haven't really played mafia on B12. Mostly on IRC or with my friends or on other forums. Searching my name will bring up a Mafiascum game, which is the first time I played and which I am thoroughly embarrassed about.

So look around, use what you know and can observe, and try to answer the question, please.

Well, the three other scum, Dakarian, Sir Bayer (Who I tried to get to post), and Zai, probably wouldn't appreciate me telling you that.[/joke]

But seriously, those are the ones I'm suspicious of. Not really Zai though, he's just kind of a random place holder.

My ideal scum team...I have no idea, gotta read some other B12 mafia games first.

Why are they suspicious?

Sir Bayer is lurking (Or maybe has stuff to do) and Dakarian is just, as you said, scummy.
I think that I'll need to participate in the discussion a bit more before I can get any farther than that.

So, what about the other lurkers? Are they not suspicious as well?

And what about dakarian is the most scummy?

@Rashilul

Grounds for that scumteam?


@Neruz

mind quoting that so I know the context?

@Web

Going after someone for a post restriction is more of a waste of time than anything else. 

I post to answer your accusations.  If you don't like them, then bring more and new accusations. 

Mephs analysis was based on what he posted.  He went after Nurez for just about the entire time, with a small bit into Shadow.  There's not much to attack him on so that's that. 

The BIG analysis comes from several game days of posts (i.e. the Bay 12 analysis), a deeply scummy person (A few of my older ones), or involving just about everyone (Toony).  I give what I have.

Now, a question: is your main attack on me based on Meta?  You go on a lot about how you 'think' I should be acting.

My analysis goes on what I think is off about your explanation. I feel that you are presenting to me and not the crowd. The crowd is we and you're only trying to make me make them believe you're town. That's why I don't like your posts.

And yes about Meph. There isn't a whole lot to go on.

But, the post restriction thing isn't crap. He's obviously not helpful, and likely his role is just a bunch of crap. I'm pretty sure he can speak just fine, and he's only doing it to throw us off. And if he can't his role can't really be considered helpful, since we're playing a game of analyzation and not of "be a stupid a moron."

Let's hear a reasoning, other than you feel like it, moron. All you're saying is that I'm scummy, and you're only applying it to a logic statement with no premises. Therefore, your statement is neither sound nor valid.

Wow, let's see someone with real intelligence accuse me this time.

1) I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't be so condescending, Your Royal Highness. 2) I'm not trying to convince anybody here right now, and therefore do not need to explain my vote. I'll leave that to Dak, who I think will be much more persuasive. If he starts being scummy again, votes shall change.

At least one of the following is scum: Web, Meph, and Dak. Suspicions in that order right now.

... Did you really just say that someone else will explain your vote? Do you have no will? No thought? No soul? Because you're certainly not helpful to your cause. And you ARE trying to convince EVERYONE that the person you're voting for is scum. This isn't random voting if you say I'm scummy but don't say why, and you've certainly made it clear you're not going to say a why, because odds are you don't have a why, now do you? This is likely a test to see who will join you and who will flake. How that's helpful is debatable, but I honestly have better things to deal with than you.

And I never asked you to call me Highness. I won't treat you like a moron if you didn't, ya know, act like one. So, perhaps instead of being a whiney little baby, try stepping up and doing proper analyzing, instead of this WIFOM crap of "Duuuuuuuuh, I think at least one of the town is scum. Duuuuuuh." Yeah, because that's helpful to everyone. Give reasons why.

Okay, here's some more saying "PROVIDE EXPLANATION" when you yourself are not...and a reason to attack dakarian that is a feeling.

Webadict's playing baddly...

LOL.

Zai, you've only proven yourself scum with that post.

So, Web, your argument on Dakarian is that he talked to you instead of the crowd? That's stupid as hell, of COURSE he's going to talk to you, YOU ASKED HIM THE QUESTIONS! Nobody else asked him anything, why would he talk to them? I think I see why you didn't want to resay it, it's one of the stupidest arguments I've heard in awhile.

No, I'm saying that he was only trying to prove himself to me so that I will indeed try to say he's town to the town. It's not a stupid argument and only stupid people would think so.

You don't do meta? Then what is this?

This is how you normally pay mafia, is it not? Making up fake rules to your role.

That is him commenting on someone else's meta. Durdudur. He said he himself doesn't have meta-tells.

FINALLY! I was starting to believe that no one would understand a word of what I said.

Someone else defends web and...web supports it?! *faceclaw*

I'm Pandarsenic. I'm basically a one-shot ultra-cop and I get to have anyone's role PM I want. So, I'll probably die tonight anyway now, but I'd really enjoy being able to say who's scum before I die, so if you plan to hammer, give me some notice.

Webadict: Answer my question?

Typical that...

PPE2: He has now answered this...

Summary: webadict's being an inconsistent lying scumbag. But I'll give you your hammer-notice.

Got anything to say for yourself other than "go look" and "support your reasoning"? I've done both. Scum.

Oh. Now You're in no danger of being hammered, since an UNVOTE BANDWAGON happened. Gods. I weep for the town.

PPE: damnit spoiler tags won't nest. altering the internal one to a quote...
PPE2: webadict answers a question? Amazing. Hmm. Still, posting...*click, read*

[CobaltKobold]

that should be "Please read the analysis IN the spoiler". With a linebreak after.

[Zai]

Getting emotional?  Going to copy Webadict's jerk mode next?

Emotional? Hardly.

Yeah, but I'd love to hear it from him.

I suppose after running all the BMs your instinct is to explain, but why bother defending him, Dakarian?

lulwut

It's not defending. It's helping the town not mislynch (or lynch for bad reasons) because of people misreading people.

[dakarian]

Cobalt: The reason why the webadict bandwagon ended is because Eduren used his skill to stop the lynch.  If Webadict is hammered the lynch will fail. 

That pushed some people away.  A few others now think of him as town so they left him be.

[SirBayer]

Thanks, Webadict.

Dakarian, a'ight. That's good enough for me.

As to my thoughts on your argument and Zai: Contradictions don't bode well in my opinion. So, I'll shift my vote to Zai. He is clipping things a bit short, isn't he?

[CobaltKobold]

Ten pages while I slept. Yeek. time to comb for scum (writing as I read) Rashilul...I don't think I'm getting any more out of him.So now I read and write through the forest and see if I can find the ninjas. (BTW it is the j key that is worst now) A pity that all the quotes I pull out will not let me know the huge number of posts written while I write this. Perhaps I'll check by timestamp. 34 pages when I started writing this. 37 now 38.
dakarian: I suppose that pardon does make it a "safe move", which only makes our job harder.

Spoiler: Fine Pandarsenic I cater to the lowest technology. Scan/analysis of what else pops up (click to show/hide)

This isn't a mess: we actually have good info here.

Is that a "No, no, it's a floordrobe" or "Hi I'm mafia and I like this mess you're making?"

That it is.  I'm voting you Webadict because you are highly insulting when you're scum.  You're only insulting when town.

I'm reading this a few times o'er dinner and trying to puzzle it out, but I think I've got it. Are you saying he's more insulting as scum, so this means he's scum?

CobaltKobold[...]
V Rashilul (again)

I don't think that vote e'er came off [til this post/set of posts], since Rashilul basically ne'er came on to answer to the pressure during the period. (Also our links are screwed up...but you appear to have noticed that)

While everyone else might not agree...I think Web is a townie. Mainly for all the raeging. And he did that in P11 and he was a townie.

You don't do meta? Then what is this?

This is how you normally pay mafia, is it not? Making up fake rules to your role.

That is him commenting on someone else's meta. Durdudur. He said he himself doesn't have meta-tells.

Why are you defending webadict?

I can confirm myself by stopping the lynch of anybody only one time. Since I have never had this role, I am going to follow what Toony did in DFMafia.

I have already blocked web's lynch. I propose that we still lynch him today in order to confirm me.

So, Webadict

...what the hell, eduren? You're stopping the lynch of someone who is apparently scum (see other post) ! Why would you do that, especially if it's a oneshot, and you don't e'en know if you're saving a town?

Next?

Your next, buddy.

Thanks, friend.

Webadict IS NOT SCUM.

Interesting...

Unvote Webadict

INSTANT UNVOTE WHEN SOMEONE ELSE TELLS HIM I'M NOT SCUM!

Yeah, it is a bit quick to be jumping off just because Toony, OF ALL PEOPLE, says something.

Want it back?

Put it where you think it belongs, not where someone else does. Apparently it's on Zai now.

I am 100% sure Zai is scum.  I am 90% sure Eduren is scum.

Guys, Webadict is NOT scum.  No way in hell is he SCUM now.  You are an idiot or scum to think so.

Looks like scum tastes like scum smells like scum...is town. Sorry, toony, provide reasons. I have a nice briefcase full in this other post I'm writing all pointing to webadict.

I agree that Zai is scummy, he is also being great buds with webadict.

Webadict, crafty little bugger he is, is probably doing this as scum for exactly the reason Toony spoke of.

Webadict townie=mean
Webadict scum=nice
Webadict scum in this game=mean

You couldn't possibly be more agreeable with everyone, could you?

Rashilul promptly IS!

Oh right, I forgot to unvote webadict and vote Zai.

[PPE:] Christ, Bayer. Hope ya feel better.

Some "safe" buddying.

Summary: Zai,, I choose YOU! You, like webadict, don't care if town die (I brought this up in a prior post, I'm fairly sure), and are being antitown left and right.

[CobaltKobold]

Oops. Forgot to add to the above post "This is the third post of three in a series."

[Zai]

You don't do meta? Then what is this?

This is how you normally pay mafia, is it not? Making up fake rules to your role.

That is him commenting on someone else's meta. Durdudur. He said he himself doesn't have meta-tells.

Why are you defending webadict?

How is that defending him? You and Bayer both think pointing out what someone meant/is doing is 'defending' them. That's just stupid.

[Neruz]

Holy jesus fuck, where did all these pages come from?

I notice that earlier on alot of people seem to be jumping me for my bandwagoning comment, that was supposed to be sarcasm (in fact almost every post i ever make has sarcasm in it somewhere), but i forgot that you guys don't know me well enough to pick up on sarcasm yet, and i didn't add any smileys for emphasis. Sorry about that.


Now to go read this mountain and work out what the hell is going on (yeah, right.)

[SirBayer]

Why, Zai? Couldn't re-interpreting someone's statement or actions be a perfectly valid form of scumbuddy defense?

(Pssst: The answer is yes)