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Author Topic: How Deep can my Wells Be?  (Read 6447 times)

LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: How Deep can my Wells Be?
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2009, 10:36:32 pm »

Actually the length of a rope is definable. It's the combined lengths of the fibers used to weave it. On the extreme end, if you separate the molecules that make up the rope and attach them in the way that will minimally qualify as a rope, the length of that structure is the length of the rope.

What is a rope? A strand of flexible material that is contiguous (no gaps). Minimally a rope is a series of molecules that each touch exactly two other molecules. If it has gaps it's more properly a chain or a series of ropes. If it's not flexible it's a cable.

Because those molecules will shift around, unless you're at absolute zero temperature, your rope needs to be better-bound than molecules touching if you want it to remain a rope for any length of time. A stable rope is one that can be manipulated in its environment without degrading into a sub-rope structure(s).

A rope does not need to support its own weight. It's quite easy to make a rope that weighs enough to make it snap near the load-bearing end when held vertical.

In DF, the main use of a rope seems to be to tie down a creature. But the amoutn of rope used to tie the knot to the floor (??) and to the creature are identical regardless of the creature. Thus it takes the same amount of rope to tie up a puppy as it does to tie up a dragon - creatures of vastly different neck diameters.

And in a well one rope appears to be able to stretch to an arbitrarily long distance under only its own weight and the weight of a (possibly heavily-decorated) bucket of water. This suggests that DF ropes are elastic. The only limitation is that a rope's volume cannot possibly be larger than the largest single-tile creature. A size 20 creature was shown in the Question of Scale thread to 13,600 kg and the average density of a whale can be described charitably as somewhat close to that of plant fibers like hemp. So the rope is at most 30,000 pounds or so.

In D&D 2nd edition 50' of hemp rope weighs 8 pounds. So you could get 3,750 lengths of rope, or 187,500 feet of rope, in one tile. But that assumes the rope is able to hold its own weight, which 8 pounds per 50' rope will not be able to at that length. If we make the grossly wild assumption that 8 pound rope can hold 300 pounds safely (a big armored human) and another horrible assumption that rope gets to cube its capacity when it squares its thickness (the ratio commonly used is 8x weight for a creature of 2x height), we might be able to work through this.

Note that the volume of rope is expressed in weight here as 30,000 pounds. If we make the rope thicker it automatically loses length in equal proportion. We need to balance it so the rope is able to support its own weight plus the weight of a bucket with water, but not support any additional weight. That will be the longest possible rope.

We need to multiply the capacity of the rope by 100, plus 8 pounds for a gallon of water and the flimsy bucket, which is roughly 4.8 cubed. That means we multiply thickness by 4.8 squared. If the rope is (I assume, again) an inch thick for 50' 8 pound rope, our self-supporting rope is now 23.04 inches thick, nearly two feet. The length of the rope is divded by 23, giving us 8,152 feet. That is the maximum length of DF rope given the above assumptions.

Now one might argue that rope reed or pig tail is stronger or weaker per pound than real-world hemp. That would throw the calculations off dramatically.

And now how long is a tile? I personally think a tile is a 7-foot cube. Dwarves start drowning in water more than 4/7 deep and refuse to path through water 4/7 deep. This suggests that they are about 4 feet tall. It makes sense to divide the liquid levels into familiar units. Of course Toady apparently uses Celcius and so might be said to use metric linear measurements, but unless a tile is 7 meters high I just don't see it as a reasonable way to measure the cube.

7 feet also means humans and elves have plenty of head room. Dragons and colossi are, simply put, either 7' tall or the tile represents the center of the creature and it has limbs that stick out. Size 20 creatures that are 40 feet long should take up 6 tiles x 2 tiles or something, and will probably when Toady implements multi-tile creatures.

If you accept this (and I really could care less either way because you can take the measurements above and do your own thing at this point), the rope can be 1,164 tiles long. There is too much rope to tie around the bucket and the well, so it's more likely that the rope is unwoven and rewoven around the well bracket and the bucket, so no extra length is used up there.

If someone embarks on a site with height greater than 1,164 and creates an active well, or gets a dry well at a lower height, I will go over the numbers again.
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zchris13

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Re: How Deep can my Wells Be?
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2009, 10:40:16 pm »

No need, truly, no need.
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Magua

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Re: How Deep can my Wells Be?
« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2009, 12:12:05 am »

At the beginning of the post, I was thinking to myself, "this man is on crack."

By the end of the post, I was thinking to myself, "this man is a god."
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Reese

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Re: How Deep can my Wells Be?
« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2009, 12:13:09 am »

now I wonder... is the value in happy thoughts of a well related to teh depth to the water, or the depth to the bottom, and is the water drawing speed related to the same or the other?

Might it be quite possible to have a very good well going to the deepest level that is filled to the level of the well to maximize both speed and happiness potential?
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Danarca

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Re: How Deep can my Wells Be?
« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2009, 01:28:06 am »

This is why I love Dwarf Fortress.
Leo, you're Godlike
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Grimlocke

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Re: How Deep can my Wells Be?
« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2009, 03:35:55 am »

I love these forums, someone can fill my screens height with calculations on some random trivial matter and be revered as god for it.

More on topic: I think its safe to assume that when dwarves tie up annimals with chains or ropes the dwarves dont use all of the rope or chain. They would just use enough that the annimal can move 1 tile away and no more.

Still, if a rope is 1164 height units long, then a few dozen annimals wandering around with ropes tied to their neck (or upper body, according to their inventory) must be inconvenient as hell. I accidentally did that with some of my annimals after deconstucting my temporary lifestock storage, and did it on purpose on my dragon to decorate it with a masterfully made chain. My meeting area must look like spagetti now.

That length would also mean that chains must be thin as hair... as they only have so much metal in them as it takes to make a shortsword or a bucket.

Also, I think Toady's water levels range from 0 to 7 to make them fit in a 3bit variable. I dont think he has a very clear idea about the scale of a tile, at least thats what I heard in on of the podcasts, do correct me if in wrong.
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Servu

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Re: How Deep can my Wells Be?
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2009, 03:37:51 am »

Nice one Leo.

Some time ago I had a fortress with a very deep well (The place was on top of a mountain just next to an ocean.) I don't know the exact length as I never bothered to count (even scrolling through all those z-levs took a while), but I'd guess it was about 80-100 levels in height.

The well itself was in the middle of my statue garden, but all the dwarves found the surrounding statues and engravings much more attractive than the well. "Admired a fine well lately" was the best thought anyone got from it.

The well was made of regular stone blocks, the bucket was low quality since it was one of the first things my carpenter made. As was the mechanism. Rope was bought. The surrounding statues (that got much more attention) were also regular stone ones, yet slightly higher quality if I recall correctly. All the engravings were naturally exceptional/masterwork.
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Quatch

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Re: How Deep can my Wells Be?
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2009, 12:00:30 pm »

Clearly we need a philosopher tag to add to people.

Although (and I can't resist).. You do base your rope volume per tile on the largest creature, then conclude the largest creature should be multi-tile anyhow.

I'd base a tile off of a dwarf-human size (pathing demonstrates that a tile is large enough to walk comfortably, but not two abreast, and you can't fight in the same square, just wrestle (as I recall)), and just work with the fact that anything smaller taking a full tile, and anything larger only using one is just a simplification on toady's side.

So you probably want to shorten that estimate a whole bunch.


[edit: I'd like to futher note I am in awe of the power of mind that allows you to actually work all the way through that. Cheers.]
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: How Deep can my Wells Be?
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2009, 01:54:26 pm »

Aw you guys are sweet.

And you're right, it should be based on dwarf-sized tiles. But if I did that then someone would mention that a whale fits in a tile too so the rope should be that big :P
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Randall Octagonapus

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Re: How Deep can my Wells Be?
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2009, 04:13:42 pm »

Im stupid
I thought you had to build wells directly on top of water
 :o
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Kanddak

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Re: How Deep can my Wells Be?
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2009, 05:54:59 pm »

words
Holy crap. Let me just join the rest of the forum here in strongly advising anyone (like me) who initially said "this is way too long and boring" and skipped Leo's post to go back and read that whole thing.
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Lord Dakoth

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Re: How Deep can my Wells Be?
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2009, 08:45:59 pm »

Good work, Leo. I am amazed. You get sunglasses. 8)
Of course, keep in mind that a gold chain (apparently) fulfills the same function as a "hemp" rope.

The density of gold is 19.3 g/cm^3. However, I think that this is obviously not realistic, I don't think that gold would support itself because of its softness. But what about iron, average density of 7.9 g/cm^3?

I would guess that the density of hemp/pig tail/rope reed rope is between that of wood and water. That is, between 0.7 g/cm^3 and 1.0g/cm^3. Let's say 0.9g/cm^3 for hemp.

I'm just laying out these numbers, I'm much too lazy to do something amazing like Leo.
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Hamster Man

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Re: How Deep can my Wells Be?
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2009, 03:39:10 pm »

I would say, based upon the quantum-dump and the atom-smasher drawbridge - not to mention their ability to use two unconnected mechanisms to activate objects across any distance - that dwarves are the masters of quantum mechanics.

Therefore, any metal or material they work with will take on new properties not inherit to it in its pure form.
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tp12

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Re: How Deep can my Wells Be?
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2009, 03:53:00 pm »

I would say, based upon the quantum-dump and the atom-smasher drawbridge - not to mention their ability to use two unconnected mechanisms to activate objects across any distance - that dwarves are the masters of quantum mechanics.

Therefore, any metal or material they work with will take on new properties not inherit to it in its pure form.
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Sphalerite

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Re: How Deep can my Wells Be?
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2009, 03:56:35 pm »

I would say, based upon the quantum-dump and the atom-smasher drawbridge - not to mention their ability to use two unconnected mechanisms to activate objects across any distance - that dwarves are the masters of quantum mechanics.
I have long suspected mechanisms used some sort of 'spooky action at a distance' quantum non-locational physics to operate.
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