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[wierd]

I dont think so Joshua.

Personally, I have very simple wants, and feel quite fullfilled and satisfied on a modest plate. I dont need, nor want to be king of the world, or to have umpteen bazillion supermodel sex workers devoted to my every whim, or some other hedonistic fantasy.

To me, happiness is being able to express myself freely, be accepted by others for who and what I am, and do what I actually personally enjoy doing, without the constant interjections of other people telling me "You should be doing this thing!" or "You aren't doing enough!", or "You only live once!", etc.

It has been my experience that people who make such interjections always have ulterior motives. It is NEVER for *MY* happiness or pleasure. It is because they profit in some way by altering or shaping my behavior, manipulating how I can live, or dictating what the social norms are.  Happiness is being free from these meddlers, being free from their demands, and getting to truly decide on my own.  This is a terrible freedom, that is true-- not everyone can deal with it, because it also comes with the dread specter of absolute responsibility (If you are the sole arbiter of your choices, the consequences of those choices are unerringly attributable to YOU.), but I actually take pleasure in that. 

As for the applicability--- AI and robots are poised to displace not just manufacturing and many services related jobs, but also many white collar jobs in finance, logistical planning, and other previously "Totally human required, very highly paid, and coveted" positions. There is no planned sink to put the displaced laborers into either, meaning that a huge glut of unemployable people will appear when these machine intelligences enter the workforce in force.

[SalmonGod]

I'm mostly the same way, weird.  Most of my hedonistic desires are a backlash against the stress imposed on me by working.  When I'm left to my own devices, it doesn't take much for me to be happy.  As a kid, I was content for years just going outside and crawling into bushes, turning over rocks, etc... and I don't think that's anything unique to being a kid in any intrinsic way.  I think the only reason I could engage those behaviors at that age and not now is because of the feeling of time constraint.  Of life running out and day to day struggles.  If I knew I had endless time, I could gladly go out and spend my days that way again, just engaging my curiosity with all the little things.  Or just lock me in a closet and leave me alone, and I'll daydream contentedly for a pretty damn long time.

Likewise, if I had infinite life to live, being stuck in a job wouldn't bother me so much either.  The experience of knowing that my life is disappearing while I work bothers me.  That at the end of my life, it will end up comprising the majority of my life experience.  If I lived forever, I'd work 100 years without complaining, knowing that the time will come eventually for other things.

[JoshuaFH]

I was tempted to rebut your concerns point-by-point, but I think I can sum up what I want to say by pointing out that that happiness that is sought after but seemingly denied by the dreary drudginess of the working world is, in fact, already available to you. I'd like to go a little Buddhist on you here, that concepts of selfhood and desire are actually the root cause of suffering. With some deliberate meditative practice, thoughts and worries can be let go of, and inner peace can be acquired.

I actually go to a meditation sangha, though honestly not as often or consistently as I should, where every week we take roughly two hours to sit and meditate. I still prescribe to atheism, but the Buddhist teachings are very attractive and sensical.

I understand your cynicism though, we live in an age of cynicism. Noise is bombarding everyone with high intensity from all directions at all times, and that noise seems to only come in two flavors: raw data with no intention behind it, or pure propaganda that is intended to direct or alter your behavior and thoughts. The data part most people are neutral about, but the propaganda is where I'm guessing the real troubles spring up, because despite how incessant it all is, it's rarely convincing, and instead causes the listener to question it, and the constant questioning leads to cynicism of the highest order in every facet of society. This is an extreme danger, but it seems innate to the information age we live in and we've already opened that pandora's box, so what are you to do?

It's why I advised meditation, drawing into yourself, slowly learning to let go of your thoughts and feelings, and embrace the nothingness inside your mind. Only then can you really escape the Samsara of the working, material world and finally gain some respite from it all. This forum is populated exclusively by a very intellectual bunch that really love thoughts and thinking, so I'm guessing this is a very hard task to ask of anyone here, but still, I advise it.

But of course, you can interpret all this as propaganda anyway Om

[wierd]

It is funny that you mention Buddhism in this capacity;

The rejection of the material, and subsequent rejection of the self, is somewhat in line with my thesis, albeit obliquely.

The definition of one's value as being tied to one's work is directly at odds with these kinds of teachings, because it denies enlightenment. It also flies against seeking a higher purpose, because the cycle of rebirth does not really have a purpose, it just is-- and is something you can escape from by ceasing to be a selfish intelligence that claims separate existence. (Instead, embracing that you are both everything and nothing.) 

As an agnostic, I cannot claim faith as a means toward happiness. I can only be serious and honest with myself, accept my own undesirable features/quirks as being indelible parts of my being which make me who and what I am, and learn to love them, and to be honest about what things I honestly do or do not find enjoyable or desirable.  I am not advocating some absurd goal of 100% bliss; I feel that life has plenty of adversity in it naturally, and does not need humans fabricated adversity added on top. I like my consequences to be natural ones, and not artificially synthesized. The latter kind is almost always capricious, the former-- typically not.

[JoshuaFH]

It is funny that you mention Buddhism in this capacity;

The rejection of the material, and subsequent rejection of the self, is somewhat in line with my thesis, albeit obliquely.

The definition of one's value as being tied to one's work is directly at odds with these kinds of teachings, because it denies enlightenment. It also flies against seeking a higher purpose, because the cycle of rebirth does not really have a purpose, it just is-- and is something you can escape from by ceasing to be a selfish intelligence that claims separate existence. (Instead, embracing that you are both everything and nothing.) 

As an agnostic, I cannot claim faith as a means toward happiness. I can only be serious and honest with myself, accept my own undesirable features/quirks as being indelible parts of my being which make me who and what I am, and learn to love them, and to be honest about what things I honestly do or do not find enjoyable or desirable.  I am not advocating some absurd goal of 100% bliss; I feel that life has plenty of adversity in it naturally, and does not need humans fabricated adversity added on top. I like my consequences to be natural ones, and not artificially synthesized. The latter kind is almost always capricious, the former-- typically not.

You're exactly right. Enlightenment is at odds with functioning as a worker bee in society. IIRC, the first Buddhist disciples were something like benevolent hobos, rejecting everything but having to live by being beggars. While attaining enlightenment is obviously the best path, as casting off all desires and thoughts can be, it's not something that would be seen as pragmatic to most people. It requires far more work and discipline than any job would ever ask for.

[Descan]

My purpose in life is to experience it.  This is why having a singular purpose in task form imposed on me (like being stuck working a job for most of my waking hours) pisses me off so much.  It limits my ability to experience life.

No, it doesn't. You wouldn't be experiencing a dyft more of life if you were having supersex with the three most beautiful people in the world while basejumping off the top of Mount Everest. You clearly don't think your purpose is "to experience life" or you wouldn't have any problem with how you live. Your purpose seems much more to be "to enjoy life", ie hedonism.

Doing the same thing over and over again, most days of the week and most weeks of the year, for 40 years is not "experiencing life," someone disliking that because they want to experience life is not being contradictory, and the alternative to that is not hedonism.

[scriver]

It's definitely experiencing life.

[Descan]

No.

Maybe this is just a communication thing? Implicit in the idea of "experiencing life," is the idea of *new* experiences.

You're not 'experiencing' anything if you're just doing the same damn thing over and over again. You're enduring it, not experiencing it. :v

[Maximum Spin]

Implicit in the idea of "experiencing life," is the idea of *new* experiences.

I don't agree that that's the case.

[Frumple]

Hey desc, enduring something is an experience. It's just generally a varyingly shitty one, that gets old much faster than basejumping supersex.

... any case, yeah, "experiencing life" does tend to imply new crap, or at least decent variation between a set of things. It's definitely the common usage by a large, large degree. An experience you can exchange for several dozen (hundreds) of others without noticing much or any difference isn't enough of an experience to register as worth noting, for most folks.

Also there's nothing wrong with hedonism, goddamnit. The extremes can get stupid like anything, particularly if you ignore the less visceral subsets of pleasure, but the base concept is fine.

[JoshuaFH]

Well, by the way he phrased it, literally anything that isn't being dead is 'experiencing life' which is technically true, if a bit disingenuous to the conversation. To be fair, the suffering of enduring a job you presumably hate for such a long time is a unique experience, which is true, someone who hasn't done that can't say they know what it feels like. Though at that point, who's to say you have anyone to blame but yourself? Assuming you're not in some financial situation that basically makes you a slave with a paycheck.

I went to the gym to think over this whole conversation and I'm reminded of a short story by Hermann Hesse, which IIRC went something like: That the pursuit of happiness is an illusory goal, that a real life is a life of suffering, that suffering is the only way a person can grow and become a fully complete human being. That one should pursue suffering, and enjoy it, because they know they're developing. I might be misremembering though.

I'm perhaps being pretentious by saying this, but perhaps the ideal freedom is simply getting to choose which suffering you get to partake in life, and then you simply get to enjoy that suffering and make the very best of it that you can.

[SalmonGod]

I went to the gym to think over this whole conversation and I'm reminded of a short story by Hermann Hesse, which IIRC went something like: That the pursuit of happiness is an illusory goal, that a real life is a life of suffering, that suffering is the only way a person can grow and become a fully complete human being. That one should pursue suffering, and enjoy it, because they know they're developing. I might be misremembering though.

I'm perhaps being pretentious by saying this, but perhaps the ideal freedom is simply getting to choose which suffering you get to partake in life, and then you simply get to enjoy that suffering and make the very best of it that you can.

I've said nothing in opposition to suffering, or for pursuit of happiness specifically.  I've mentioned that many of my most valuable life experiences have been painful.  I'm just against being limited by external forces.

To be fair, the suffering of enduring a job you presumably hate for such a long time is a unique experience, which is true, someone who hasn't done that can't say they know what it feels like.

The experience of bleeding to death is a life experience too, up until the point you're fully dead.  But I think we'd all agree it's not something one should pursue at an early age, right?  Because you're precluding yourself from having other life experiences.  If we're going the route of suffering being ok, identity being an illusion, etc, then there's no other reason I can think of to see it as a bad thing.  You could say it's a waste of a person that could have contributed to society, but the root of this conversation was how to value life in a society where human labor isn't needed.

Assuming you're not in some financial situation that basically makes you a slave with a paycheck.

This describes most people living in the United States. 

And the end result is very similar to bleeding to death - it precludes other life experiences - it's just a more drawn out process.  I'm not arguing that it's not itself a life experience.  But it's a life experience that denies you other life experiences.

Let's try another way.  You have a limited amount of money.  You have a certain amount of things you both want and need to do with that money.  You get robbed at gunpoint.  Technically, you still spent your money, right?  You spent it on not getting shot.  Most anyone would see it as strange if your reaction was "I spent my money!  Mission accomplished!"  I see our limited time to be alive exactly the same way.

[JoshuaFH]

Perhaps I should bow out of the conversation now, I hate to think I'm touching some sensitive nerves with my ignorance. I'm not affluent, or even middle class, I work a part-time job for near minimum wage, and live in a small apartment by myself, but I live my life very cautiously and frugally, so I never feel like I'm hurting or threatened. It's honestly a very dull existence, and I can't even say I'm satisfied with it but I try to be happy with what I have. Still though, I feel I'm somewhat sheltered from what seems to be the worldwide suffering that is felt by the rest of the world, and I can't say that that ignorance isn't deliberate on my part. I apologize for any pretentiousness on my part, you've all been excellent conversational partners, I don't get enlivened discourse like this everyday.

[Maximum Spin]

the root of this conversation was how to value life in a society where human labor isn't needed.

Oh, that's easy: you don't. Life is essentially worthless, and cannot be otherwise. This is another fact Buddhism has the right of.

Speaking of which, it's cool to see someone else with a Buddhist-informed worldview around.

[birdy51]

I think some of this falls under different strokes. I don't think could do the same exact things in the same exact order every day, but that might be more because my mind isn't wired to find intense satisfaction in finding a new to look at a familiar thing.