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[Yanlin]

Read that article again, it includes character motivation as a possible form of statistics.
If a game were to determine if a player's action succeeds or fails based on a set of rules and guidelines, what exactly is it going to base the outcome on if there is no representation whatsoever of the player's abilities?
"Can I pick this lock?" "Nope."
"Can I pick this lock?" "If you have enough experience with locks, perhaps."  Which one is the RPG?
If the computer has to decide whether or not your character can do something, that's a stat, skill, whatever.  It's a role playing game, so the game itself has to provide at least some of the rules. Usually the ones involving dice and numbercrunching.

Another example:
If I go to a LARP, my character being an elf wizard, and roleplay a scene in which I encounter a big muscled warrior in a boxing ring, who would win?  My elf couldn't possibly beat the warrior with pure strength, any good RP'er knows that.  Why is this?  Because the warrior is stronger.  Oh, look, stats.  See?  Doesn't even have to be on the computer to involve stats.

Stats keep track of your character to avoid you saying "Oh, and my elf is actually as strong as 10 bears with shark nunchucks." and they allow the computer to know what your character can and cannot do.  Rules and guidelines need interesting input to give interesting results.  This input is your character, in the form of attributes and statistics.  This can be in pure number form or just by common sense, but computers can only use numbers.

Roleplay:

Stand back! I think I can blow this door open! Now which order was it... Red green red or green blue red?

Not roleplay:

I can put a bomb in this door to blow it up.

[Rhodan]

Roleplay game:
Stand back! I think I can blow this door open! Now which order was it... Red green red or green blue red?
[game performs skillcheck, dice get rolled or GM decides whether character is skilled enough or not to set off the bomb]

Not roleplay game:
I put the bomb in this door to blow it up.
Door blows up regardless of character's experience with bombs.

How many times do I have to underline the game bit before you come up with a counter argument that's related to what the discussion is supposed to be about?
And even in your example, if the person setting the bomb suddenly pretends to be a master bomb setter and succeeds despite no previous experience with bombs, you're performing bad roleplay.  Good roleplay requires you to keep your character abilities in mind, that's a form of stats.

[Yanlin]

Roleplay game:
Stand back! I think I can blow this door open! Now which order was it... Red green red or green blue red?
[game performs skillcheck, dice get rolled or GM decides whether character is skilled enough or not to set off the bomb

Or it's an automatic success.]

Not roleplay game:
I put the bomb in this door to blow it up.
[game performs skillcheck, dice get rolled or GM decides whether character is skilled enough or not to set off the bomb

Or it's an automatic success.]

You missed the point. So I fixed it for you.

There's bad RP, there's good RP. You need to ban the bad RP ones.

Character abilities don't have to come from stats. For example, in SS13, if you come in after the round starts, you start jobless and need to get assigned to a job. Since I'm usually captain, I do it if the HoP can't.

The dialog goes sort of like this.

Him: Hello sir. I just got here and I need a job change.
Me: Hey. Welcome aboard. What are your qualifications?
Him: Well I'm a qualified engineer. Went to the Philadelphia institute of engineering. I also studied medicine on Station 4.
Me: Well we have a medic, but the engine needs firing. You're hired. Go suit up.
Him: Thanks capn'.



Here's how bad RP goes:

Captain: Hey.
Him: Hi.
Captain: What job do you want?
Him: Engineering or medic.
Captain: We need an engineer. Go start the engine.
Him: Thanks.

No RP:

Captain: Hey.
Him: Hey. Give me engineer please.
Captain: Sure.

Game stays the same. Different dialog affects everything.

[Rhodan]

The dialog goes sort of like this.

Him: Hello sir. I just got here and I need a job change.
Me: Hey. Welcome aboard. What are your qualifications?
Him: Well I'm a qualified engineer. Went to the Philadelphia institute of engineering. I also studied medicine on Station 4.
Me: Well we have a medic, but the engine needs firing. You're hired. Go suit up.
Him: Thanks capn'.

What's this then?  Isn't this important information about the character's abilities?  When the game keeps track of this, it's an RPG, when the players keep track of it it's an RP.  It's still a form of stats, your character has to stick with his background story, so that he can't suddenly become an adept martial artist as well, or doesn't use engineering skills that he couldn't have learned in Philadelphia.  SS13 doesn't seem to keep track of job stats itself, though it does track health, so it's an RPG. If it didn't track of anything it would just be an RP.

The whole point was what makes a Roleplaying Game, you just keep hammering on about good and bad roleplay, which is besides the point.  If an MMO does not keep track of any player abilities or stats, it's not an MMORPG, it's an MMORP.  I even underlined the game bit in my previous post.

[Yanlin]

Stats are arbitrary you know. Stats don't make a game RPG. Roleplaying makes a game RPG.

The word has been defamed. Mass Effect, Fallout 3, all those, are not RPGs. They are just games where you play as a character and have stats.

But you don't NEED the stats.



Also, yes I can pull out hidden knowledge from my ass. In SS13, you don't just press a button and the engine is ignited. You need to know the proper procedure and if you do it wrong, the engine will output less power or just downright not work.

Same with medicine. Give a person too many pills, improperly configure the cryocell, forget about the sleeper you just put them in... It's about player skill. Not about arbitrary stats.

[Rhodan]

So basically, Final Fantasy, Neverwinter Nights single-player campaign, any jRPG and similar games are not RPGs?  Because there's no role playing in there, just advancing through the storyline while increasing your stats.
In any of the above games, you play the role of a character or party with their own skills and stats, and it's your job to play out their skills strategically to win.  That's an RPG.  MMORPGs feature player interaction so they have RP added on top, which makes them more interesting.  Multiplayer RPGs like SS13 also require RP in order to be more fun.  But you can win the game by just having the Wiki open and chatting in shorthand.  Still the same game but less fun.

The word has been defamed. Mass Effect, Fallout 3, all those, are not RPGs. They are just games where you play as a character and have stats.

Funny, because the stats are just what makes these games a little bit more like an RPG and not just an action game.  They are indeed not RPGs though.  Because the player himself has to be skilled at shooting and dodging, it is just an action game with stats.
If it's about player skill, it's not an RPG, it's an action/puzzle/adventure game with role playing.  Even though the role play features way more heavily than the other elements, the term RPG does not apply.

A role playing game is about playing the role of a character and applying that character's skills appropriately, independent of your own skills other than strategy.
Role play is making the above character believable and interesting towards your fellow players.

Then what sets an RPG apart from a strategy game?  Not much, mostly the focus on a single character/small party, the story and the character development.

RPGs with stats have existed from the very beginning.  In fact, checking Wikipedia's history on RPGs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_role-playing_games) actual roleplay is hardly mentioned.  These games have been the first use of the term "RPG", and are obviously heavily based on stats.
So please don't defame the word RPG by saying stats are not needed.  Stats have been and will be an integral part of the RPG experience.  RP itself is an entirely different concept which happens to make RPGs more interesting and involving.

[Yanlin]

Allow me to put it a little more bluntly.

Stats help define the character you're supposed to be roleplaying. But they are NOT REQUIRED.

[Sowelu]

This is silly.  I'm with Rhodan.  Stats are what make the RPG (as opposed to RP).

You might as well say that all horror games are also SURVIVAL horror, regardless of how much ammo and health they give you, because clearly you want to survive! _(mostly)

RPG is not literal, it's a figure of speech that refers to a specific genre.  That genre uses stats.

[Rhodan]

They are required in an RPG, Yanlin.  Simple as that.  The first thing to be called an RPG had stats, and every RPG after that had, has and will have stats as well, it's defining of the genre.  The few games called "RPG" that do not have stats have stats hidden behind another system or are just wrongly named.

You are thinking of just roleplay.  Roleplay is not a genre of games.

[Yanlin]

Apparently, to be an RPG, you need stats such as Strength, Charisma, Stamina, Etc.

Are you saying, that without stats like these, it's not an RPG?

I just remembered an example. Rise of the Argonauts. It had no such stats as far as I can recall. You just gained powers by devoting your deeds (Stuff you do in game. Quite a lot of them. Such as completing this fetch quest, killing that guy, whatever.) which then give you favor to buy new powers with. You could buy various defensive and healing powers by devoting deeds to Apollo and shizz.

But basically, no such stats.

[Sowelu]

Sounds (very) vaguely similar to Okami's system, also Zelda 2, although neither of those gave you much variety on what you upgraded.

Both of those are usually classed as adventure games instead of RPGs...the same category as Metroid.

[Rhodan]

The stats don't have to be stuff like Strength, you can be a bit more original like a game where everything is bast on personality statistics.  But the stats should always be something that represent your character's personal skills and abilities.  'Bought' abilities are slightly stretching the concept.
As for Rise of the Argonauts, the makers don't even seem too sure about it themselves.  The game's homepage says "Action Adventure" but the game info says RPG.

[Zironic]

In a true player economy, you would let the player choose what they want to represent money. I was once playing on an RO...FULL demo server, when I realize even though the zen was useless in small increments, players still used it to buy and sell extremely powerful items.

[Vahan]

I actually agree with Yanlin on this.

Your argument seems to be stats = RPG, but that makes no sense. It's a roleplaying game. I highly doubt that I have "stats" TRULY different to you in real life, but I still play my role in life nonetheless, do I not?

Computer games, in non-CRPG games, should not really be called roleplaying games, as you are not really playing a role. In Baldur's Gate, I played a role. In Icewind Dale, I played a group of characters. In Planescape, despite it's MAIN STORYLINE and SPECIFIC character, I played a role, as it was an exceptionally clever game.

Many people don't, but they are usually munchkins, or something to that effect, min-maxxing and metagaming in an attempt to make them the "best" at the game. Of course, they can just be people who want to complete the game for the sake of it. I really, really don't get that, as roleplaying and immersion in the world adds so much to it.

There are a few reasons the Wii is such a huge success, but a major one is the suspension of disbelief it gives the person using it.

[Rhodan]

You're making the same logic mistake Yanlin did.
Stats does equal RPG, since "RPG" is a name of a genre of games that heavily features stats or similar to define player characters.  Period.  The first games to be called an RPG had stats, and all games after that.  It's defining of the genre. 

There's no point arguing about how roleplay does not need stats or how you can also roleplay in other games that are not RPGs, that has nothing to do with it.  This is not about roleplay, this is about RPGs. The literal meaning of the words "role playing game" is not the same as the actual meaning.
Roleplay adds immersion, and most RPGs are intended to be more immersive with a little extra roleplay, but they're still RPGs if you munchkin your way through.

As for the real life argument: let's compare resumes, I'm sure there are quite a few skills you have that I don't.  You're possibly bigger or smaller or stronger or weaker than me.  And even if all these things happen to be identical, you're most likely the opposite alignment.
If we would transfer ourselves into an RPG game, our different strengths and weaknesses would be written down as stats.  Do you really think we would be two identical characters?